BEW - Ongoing Dev Thread (DAZ Artists Still Wanted)

[ExLibris]

The fact that he is disturbed by the suggestion that he's stalking her says that he isn't stalking. Also, the fact that he talks about it with the woman keeps it grounded. If it were creepy, Faith and Emily would have told us.

Apologies for the digression, but the fact that Brad is disturbed by the suggestion that he's stalking this girl is neither here nor there. No one ever thinks that they're the bad guy. What matters is how it would seem to the girl (or to a judge). Faith and Emily may not be bothered by it, but that's because they know Brad well enough to think that he wouldn't do anything untoward (although Emily is concerned he might be arrested). Look at it this way, if the same guy (who you didn't know) was directly behind you in line at the coffee shop every day for a month, wouldn't you feel threatened?

[tlaero]

When I'm a vampire who can kick his ass? No...

Tlaero

[tlaero]

Oh my god. I wrote my previous feedback before I found the sex scene. Wow is it ever hot. Awesome work, Wolf!

Tlaero

[ExLibris]

When I'm a vampire who can kick his ass? No...

Tlaero

A vampire who drinks coffee and walks around in the daylight?

I agree that, to judge from the later encounter at the bar, she's not particularly threatened by Brad (for whatever reason). However, Brad doesn't know that when he starts. It also wouldn't make much difference in the eyes of the law (at least where I live) since the standard is what a "reasonable person" would find threatening, and Brad's behaviour skirts right at the limit of that for me. To be fair, one of the major themes of the game is not crossing the line between harmless perv and creepy stalker, but that line is going to be in different places for different people.

[Wolfschadowe]

I can't find the recap scene.

I disabled the recap in this version, it was very broken. I'll re-enable it when I finish the second branch of day one and have the strip club scene integrated.

What's posted now is really just a proof of concept. The intent of the recap is to give hints about other paths the player could have taken. Not as important with just the bar scene, but it can help identify the different exit points from the scene when it is enabled.

Hi Wolfshadowe
Which DAz use you? DAZ3 or DAZ4.
Which figures you use.. that look is very good.
And which Render-Oprtionen make this nice pictures?
Thank you

I am using the recently released free version of DAZ 4.5. (At least it seems free, like the first hit of heroine or cocaine. Then you want content, so just a few dollars here, and a couple more there...and then the bank account screams in agony.)

Faith is loosely based off of Stephanie 5. Emily is a customized Victoria 5. Background characters are just Genesis where I messed with the sliders to make them unique.

I am using the default 3Delight render that comes with DAZ 4.5. Render settings are default, except I turned Raytracing up to 6 to get good transparency and reflections. Shader rate is set to .2 on close-ups, and .5 with the wide shots. I just made the settings so the renders take about 30 minutes on my rig which is a mid-high range current technology gaming system I built. Plus, when I'm not traveling, I work from home, so it's easy to start the next render during the day and go back to my work laptop.

I really don't like that playing on medium gives you content that you can't get playing on hard. ... Personally, I prefer additive difficulty, where hard can do everything and medium can do less, and easy can do still less, but as I said before, you should make the game you want to play.
....
Separately, I didn't like the spots where the say field and the hit target did the same thing. I wondered if there was a subtle difference or if they actually did the same thing. I think you should pick one or the other.

....
Oh my god. I wrote my previous feedback before I found the sex scene.

On hard, all content should be accessible. The current design, which I'm rethinking while I'm charting and rendering the strip club scene for Day 1, is a fail-down design. If a hard mode relationship check is failed, then rather than the game ending, the player moves to the medium mode version of that scene, or even the easy mode version. I don't think that was the best design choice though, and I will likely revisit the Bar scene and put more of the choice in the players hands. For example, the relationship with Faith will determine whether or not she watches the player and Emily, and that should be decided by the game per Faith's design, but on hard mode, maybe the player doesn't want Faith to join, just watch. There is a player controlled path to that currently, but it's not very clear. Most other differences between Hard, medium and easy are similar, but I think I need to move some of those choices closer to the player than they currently are.

I like your idea of there being a border. I tried to do similar by making the whole picture click-able if something was there, and then linking it to text if there was both options, so at least the mouse changed to help alleviate the need to hunt for spots on every image. I'm undecided if avoiding mixed options and going just target, or text is better though. You do make a good points about feeling like they are different options, or feeling the need to scan every picture.

Finally, I'm glad you enjoyed the scene. Which one was it?

Wolfschadowe

[Wolfschadowe]

On the Stalker discussion, I tend to agree that in it's current form, it's a little too creepy. It's not quite hitting the vibe I want, which is meant to be a grey area. It is intended to be a little divisive, even in the game Emily calls it stalking, and Faith says it's just routine. The intro scene will definitely stay, but it currently leans just a little too much toward stalker than I intended. I think can reword it a bit and change the tone to where it edges back into the gray area. I just don't want to over correct and miss the gray again.

Wolfschadowe

[ExLibris]

On the Stalker discussion, I tend to agree that in it's current form, it's a little too creepy. It's not quite hitting the vibe I want, which is meant to be a grey area. It is intended to be a little divisive, even in the game Emily calls it stalking, and Faith says it's just routine. The intro scene will definitely stay, but it currently leans just a little too much toward stalker than I intended. I think can reword it a bit and change the tone to where it edges back into the gray area. I just don't want to over correct and miss the gray again.

Wolfschadowe

One possibility would be to decrease the amount of time before the game that Brad has been observing the girl. The fact that he's been doing it for a whole month reinforces his pre-meditation and undercuts his characterisation as a 'nice' guy since it's taken him that long to realise that his behaviour could be considered stalking (it also makes it less believable that the girl hasn't reacted in some way). I'd suggest cutting it down to a handful of times instead. The first time is an accidental meeting, the second time is his subconscious bringing him back at the right time to meet her again, the third time is him trying (and failing) to get up the nerve to ask her out. Another two or three times would be enough to push it into 'maybe creepy' territory.

On a related note, I found it a bit odd that all three characters refer to the PC as a perv (ie. by the exact same word). It's a very minor thing, but it took me out of the story a little. It would make them more unique if they described him differently (alternatively, Brad could describe himself as a perv first and they could just go along with his self-description.

On the screen vs text debate, I'm in two minds. On the one hand, having hot spots hidden on the screen is about the only gameplay element that distinguishes this kind of game from a visual novel or other CYOA-style game. On the other hand, it's very rarely actually fun to have to hunt for the hot spot (the only one I enjoyed was noticing the girl passing the bar). I normally just tab through the available links, which negates the gameplay. I think my preference would be to at least avoid actively misdirecting the player (I'm thinking of the screen where the text has the PC asking about the creepy guy at the bar, which steers the player away from clicking on the couple). Ideally there should also be obvious visual cues for the location of the hot spots as well. I also agree with Tlaero that having both a hot spot and a text field duplicating the same action should be avoided.

[Wolfschadowe]

Just for fun, the original character proof I made for the Bar scene. Left to right, Creepy Patron, Waitress, Faith (early concept), and amorous couple.

Wolfschadowe

[Wolfschadowe]

Character proof for the club scene. Left to right, interest/Dancer Natalie, Dancer Riley, Dancer Azumi, Dancer Sylvia, Patron 1, Patron 2, Dancer/hostess Candace (Candy), and Bartender/Manager James.

Wolfschadowe

[TheMajor]

I really enjoyed it and look forward to the next 6 days - Congratulations on a fantastic debut!!

Keep up the great work

[rabbie]

I actually like the early faith a little better, but i have been told many times that i have horrible taste...

[tlaero]

On the other hand, the girl in black goes to the exact same place at the exact same time every day. It's fairly reasonable for her to find it normal that someone else is doing the same thing. Especially because they're buying coffee before work, and most people have fixed start times at work. Similarly, I see the same people rock climbing every Monday, but I don't think they're stalking me. If he was following her home, that would be one thing, but he's just buying coffee and holding the door open for her in a public place. Hardly threatening behavior.

Wolf, the scene I found was the Emily one at the bar with Faith watching. Then I cheated a bunch to see the variations.

The "hard falls back to medium" idea is an interesting one. I'm worried that the complexity will get out of hand and lead to hard to find bugs but it's interesting.

I've just made a version of AC that adds a border to the image if there are any hit targets in it. When I upload it, I'll explain how to convert your game to it. It's mostly just adding some styles and telling AC to Update All.

Regarding hit targets vs table entries, my convention is that hit targets are things you DO and table entries are things you SAY. I rarely have places where I want to say and do something at the same time.

Tlaero

[ares]

This piece of game you have showed, as far as I'm concerned, it's not only an impressive first effort but I would say it even succeeds to being superior in some aspects to its predecessors. Pluses are:

1.- Good building of characters through conversations. This is particularly evident with the exchange with Faith prior to the arrival of Emily. As have been mentioned elsewhere, in flash games you don't get a lot of text to present your characters. I believe the one you have, you use well.

2.- Prolonged sex scene. This is where I think your game excels. The sex scene is not only hot, but it is realistically hot. Good sex I believe takes its time to develop and it is about teasing and lusting. There is a lot of this in your scene and I think it succeeds in conveying the idea that all characters are getting aroused as it progresses. You managed to do this by having many pictures, with small changes between them as things got hotter. I would strongly encourage you to keep this style. As far as rendering is concerned, it increases the number of renders but on the other hand, you need to create very little. And for me at least, this particular feature enhances the experience greatly.

I think the discussion of whether the guy is too creepy is a non issue. I think Tlaero has it right, if you have the same routine everyday, it doesn't feel unreasonable that other people might have it as well. The fact that the guy is meeting the woman at the same cafe didn't look to me as something strange at all. There could be many reasons for this, both livin nearby, both working nearby and so on. When I have my cappuccino in the bar in front of my house, I usually meet many people who always go there at about the same hour. We, men, are animals of habits.

The thing that could make it creepy is not what happens per se but your own description of what is happening through the thoughts of the PC. Literally you say "You are a bit of a pervert, always admiring girls nearby...". With that description, it seems you are trying to print in the player that the character is kind of weird when most people, men and women, admire men and women they find beautiful when they encounter them. With your description of the thoughts of the PC, most players won't feel identified but again, that is your story. Heterosexual people also go and enjoy Brokeback Mountain, the point being that the PC in a good game does not have to be a reflection of the player.

I was not particularly annoyed by the fact that clicking in the screen lead to the same option that the dialog option in the bottom. Mainly because it was sort of obvious that it did. It is probably better though to do as tlaero says and use hotspots for ACTIONS and dialog options for things you say explicitly.

Bottom line, congratulations for your excellent first effort. You should take the game wherever you want to take it. You have already proven that you are capable of doing quality stuff.

[Wolfschadowe]

The weird text you're getting is a result of writing the text in Word and copying and pasting it to adventure creator.

I haven't found anything like you describe, but understand what you mean. I've seen similar things before in other situations. Can you let me know a current page that is doing it so I can try to reproduce it and then kill it?

One possibility would be to decrease the amount of time before the game that Brad has been observing the girl.

That's a good idea. I'll probably shorten the time to a week or two, and rework a couple of the really overtly stalkery statements. That should kick it back into the grey, but keep the intended feel.

I found it a bit odd that all three characters refer to the PC as a perv

Good observation. It's out of Emily's character to use that, but I'm sure the thesaurus will help.

I think my preference would be to at least avoid actively misdirecting the player (I'm thinking of the screen where the text has the PC asking about the creepy guy at the bar, which steers the player away from clicking on the couple).

I don't like active misdirect either. Hurrying and missing something is one thing, although I try to keep target sizes reasonable, but the text on that one does misdirect on that and it's not the intent. I'll rework it a bit.

...but i have been told many times that i have horrible taste...

Then I hope you hate my game. Seriously though, I liked that Faith too, but ultimately went with the current one for technical reasons. The original quadrupled my render times.

Then I cheated a bunch to see the variations.

I did the same thing on CfK! Played it for an ending and then cheated for variations.

I've just made a version of AC that adds a border to the image if there are any hit targets in it. When I upload it, I'll explain how to convert your game to it. It's mostly just adding some styles and telling AC to Update All.

That sounds great! Another thing that would help me out a lot, if it's not too hard and doesn't take much time, would be to make all the href labels in AC into buttons that open the associated page in AC. Like when you click on a page title in Game View. When I'm playtesting, I like to have AC on one screen and my browser in the other. I would like to be able to click a link in the browser, then click the button in AC to move to that page to keep them synced. Currently I juggle AC and Game View, which works fine, but the buttons would be easier.

P.S. Have I mentioned lately how awesome you are for putting AC out there? Thanks!

Literally you say "You are a bit of a pervert, always admiring girls nearby...".

Great observation! It's the old writing paxil, show it, don't say it. I'll probably rework that bit for the next version while I'm waiting for renders.

Finally, once again, thank you all for your kind words. I'm glad so many are enjoying the game.

Wolfschadowe

[karrek]

Great game, I'm super looking forward to more installments. If you need any help with testing or whatever, I'd be glad to do that.

I'm a little stuck though, apparently (I didn't even realize I had missed out on some scenes until I started digging through files). The most sexual ending I've been able to get to is

the two girls in the bar basically sitting in my lap and fingering each other until they get off, and then I have the option to ask for a handjob in the bathroom. How do I get to a proper threesome?

Any help's appreciated.