BEW - Ongoing Dev Thread (DAZ Artists Still Wanted)

[ExLibris]

I'm a little stuck though, apparently (I didn't even realize I had missed out on some scenes until I started digging through files). The most sexual ending I've been able to get to is

the two girls in the bar basically sitting in my lap and fingering each other until they get off, and then I have the option to ask for a handjob in the bathroom. How do I get to a proper threesome?

Any help's appreciated.

First, play on hard. Content is limited on the lower difficulties.

Second, there isn't a full sex scene at this point. The best you can hope for is

a blowjob from one or both of the girls

Third, access to that content depends on building up influence with both girls throughout the game, so you'd need a full walkthrough. However, in general

both girls like to be admired, but you shouldn't push too hard

[ExLibris]

On the other hand, the girl in black goes to the exact same place at the exact same time every day. It's fairly reasonable for her to find it normal that someone else is doing the same thing. Especially because they're buying coffee before work, and most people have fixed start times at work. Similarly, I see the same people rock climbing every Monday, but I don't think they're stalking me. If he was following her home, that would be one thing, but he's just buying coffee and holding the door open for her in a public place. Hardly threatening behavior.

I agree that if they're both getting coffee before work then they'd be likely to see each other in the coffee shop more often than not.

The problem is that that's not what is happening here. Brad has been directly behind her in line for coffee every day for a month. That's not happenstance, it's not coincidence, it's enemy action. And while Brad's specific behaviour isn't threatening, his overall pattern of behaviour could be construed that way.

The most innocuous excuse you could make for Brad's behaviour is that he's trying to work up the courage to talk to her. But after a month of failure, that just makes him look pathetic. It's also contradicted by the fact that he has no problem talking to her at the bar (or at least calling to her as she passes by). To me it looks like intimacy seeking stalking. Brad wants to be in a relationship with this girl, and meeting her regularly is his way of fooling himself that there is actually a connection between them.

[Wolfschadowe]

Great game, I'm super looking forward to more installments. If you need any help with testing or whatever, I'd be glad to do that.

I'm a little stuck though, apparently (I didn't even realize I had missed out on some scenes until I started digging through files). The most sexual ending I've been able to get to is

the two girls in the bar basically sitting in my lap and fingering each other until they get off, and then I have the option to ask for a handjob in the bathroom. How do I get to a proper threesome?

Any help's appreciated.

Hi Karrek,

Some info for you in Spoiler.

There are several outcomes to day 1 that will roll into day two for continuation, when it is ready. There are four major exit paths, and a few minor paths. The bathroom scene you describe is a minor path that modifies one of the major paths. It also blocks a couple of the major paths. I do not consider the bathroom scene to be an ending to the overall bar scene, it is a modifier.

The other scene you describe is when you have a high relationship with both, which is why Faith comes over in the first place, but it's not high enough with one or both of them to continue to the next stage where they turn attention on you. That is the most difficult ending to achieve in the Bar scene. Even failing that check, it is still possible to have a satisfying ending. Succeeding opens 2 major paths, but blocks 2 others.

There are no full sex scenes in day 1. Play your cards correctly in day 1, and you may get lucky in day 2 though....

Some general hints below.

When playing on Hard, the primary deciding factor in what happens is your relationship with each girl individually. Many actions fail if your relationship with that person is low, but succeed on a different play through if your relationship is higher. There are a few actions that will always fail, of course.

Relationship gains or losses do not always reflect in your score, and your score changing is not always a result of relationship changes.

Sometimes, actions that positively affect one girl's relationship, will negatively affect the other. (i.e. jealousy)

Sometimes, actions that positively affect one girl, will also positively affect another if they are participating or observing. (i.e. being caught up in the moment)

Likewise, sometimes actions that negatively affect one girl, will also negatively affect another if they are aware that it is happening. (i.e. The observer will wonder if you would do the same to them.)

Sometimes, the girls may not know themselves what they want. (i.e. Women Sorry ladies.)

Finally, if I did it all correctly, it should all be obvious in hindsight. There are no intentional gotcha's or traps.

I hope this helps you understand the mechanics a bit. If you would like stronger hints, or information about what scene's are present, and general information on how to get them, feel free to PM me. I'm happy to provide as much, or little information as you want.

Wolfschadowe.

[bigchief]

Relationship gains or losses do not always reflect in your score, and your score changing is not always a result of relationship changes.

For me, this is something I actually really disliked about the game. (I liked the rest though! Certainly challenging.)

Take for example

when you look under the desk on hard mode. If you compliment her legs (i.e. be nice) you gain a point in score. If you then try and look at her boobs later on she reacts angrily. If instead you look up her skirt you don't gain a point in score but she is receptive to you looking at her boobs later on.

It just seemed very counter intuitive so when you're on the 15th replay of that scene and trying to get a desired outcome it was very misleading!

[Wolfschadowe]

It just seemed very counter intuitive so when you're on the 15th replay of that scene and trying to get a desired outcome it was very misleading!

Thanks for playing the work in progress! Especially for being engaged enough to play 15 times!

I can understand how some may not like that each girls relationship isn't directly related to score. It can cause what appears to be inconsistent, but I hope it's not too counter intuitive. The intent is not to actively mislead which is why there is an early warning about score. I personally like how there is some mystery to what will happen, and that we can't just watch the score in order to progress. I've tried to make each girl consistent with her personality and internal agenda.

What you are seeing is because each girls reactions depend on your relationship with them, modified by past experiences in the game. If you are interested, there is more info in the spoiler about the mechanic.

Each of the five main girls in the game have their own relationship score. Only three are implemented so far (Emily, Faith, Coffee girl). One other shows up in the Strip Club scene which I'm almost half way done rendering, and the last shows up in day three, so it will be a while before we see her.

Five factors impact relationships for each girl. Four are unique to each girl, and one is shared between all the girls. The shared factor is accomplishments in game Every time you accomplish something, like passing a tricky relationship check, or take the "best" path, the accomplishment score goes up, and so does the main score listed on the page. Each accomplishment also adds one to each girls relationship score.

The other four factors are two positive and two negative variables for each girl.(total 20, five girls, with four variables each)

Two of these four, one positive and one negative for each girl affects the main score, positively and negatively, along with their individual relationship score.

The last two, also one positive and one negative only affect each girl's individual relationship score, and will not show up on the main score. The hidden scores have a higher impact, both positive and negative, than the ones that show up on the main game score. I've tried to give visual feedback when these trigger, based on the girls reaction. So, if the girl looks unhappy about something, but the score didn't go down, it is likely that you triggered the hidden negative factor. The same for if a girl suddenly looks happy, or flirty, but the score didn't go up, you probably triggered the positive hidden factor.

Super spoiler alert: Actual game example for the early office scene below:

In the scene you are describing, Looking up this skirt triggers the hidden positive. She knows you are looking (as she mentions at the bar later, if you are on the applicable branch) and it triggers the hidden positive variable, which has a higher impact than looking at her legs, which she also wants you to do, but isn't the hidden variable and has a lesser positive impact to your relationship with her. When it comes time for the relationship check when you proudly acknowledge staring at her breasts, if your relationship score with Emily is high enough, you are successful.

I hope this helps you understand what is going on. That mechanic is important as the rest of the game develops.

While the Strip Club scenes are rendering, I am reworking the difficulty system to be a little looser and give all options for all levels of difficulty. The main differentiators will be the length of sex scenes on easy and medium mode, as well as the level of relationship needed to progress along story paths. I am also reworking the memory system that was broken and causing problems with the recap, and also unintentionally limited access to minor story paths.

I am debating posting a "repaired" version of what is already posted, once the corrections are made, including a re-enabled recap, or just holding off until all of Act 1 is completed (about halfway through day 3)
Also, I have updated the progress post on page 1 of this topic.

Wolfschadowe

[tlaero]

Wolf, I think it's great that you're experimenting and finding your own way. I'll give advice that comes from my experience making a number of these games, but I completely support you not following it if you so choose. While I spend a lot of time thinking about these things, I'm certainly not the last word on how to make these games.

As I've said before, I see the score as a way to avoid walkthroughs. I know I can't stop them altogether, and I know that some people don't even play the game, they just go straight to the code. So difficulty is a subtle and nuanced thing. You're trying to find that spot where the game is hard enough to be worthwhile but not so hard that the player just goes to the walkthrough.

I feel that there are two sidewalks on either side of the street. You can have no score showing, like Keeley 1 and 2 or you can have a score that helps people figure out if they're doing the right thing, like Keeley 3, Christine, and Keisha. It feels like you're on neither sidewalk but walking down the center of the street (where you're liable to get hit by a car). Partially my fault, but I think people who play these games expect the score to tell them if they're doing the right thing. I'm not sure that your more abstract score is helpful, and I know that it will be confusing to some users. Heck, a non-trivial number of Keisha players couldn't understand that score, and it's simpler than yours.

I think what you should ask yourself is what is the purpose of the score? What value to the player does showing it bring? And is that value worth more than the confusion? It feels to me that, given my limited understanding of your goals, you are better served by not showing the score at all.

Tlaero

[ExLibris]

I can understand how some may not like that each girls relationship isn't directly related to score. It can cause what appears to be inconsistent, but I hope it's not too counter intuitive. The intent is not to actively mislead which is why there is an early warning about score. I personally like how there is some mystery to what will happen, and that we can't just watch the score in order to progress. I've tried to make each girl consistent with her personality and internal agenda.

I think it comes down to a question of feedback. In real life, when you're trying to judge whether someone likes you or not, you go by their expression, tone of voice, and so on. In a text-based game it's quite straight-forward to hint at those sorts of things. In a visually-oriented game you have far fewer options. You can show a picture that indicates whether a character has reacted positively or negatively to an action immediately after that action has taken place, but otherwise there's no visual way of indicating a character's general attitude to the PC (unless you create multiple versions of each picture with minor variations in expression).

I also think that having multiple girls increases the difficulty for the player in this regard. When the player is only interacting with a single character, its easier to judge that character's overall attitude to the PC. If the player is interacting with multiple characters, it becomes more difficult to keep track of each character's attitude, especially if behaving in a certain way towards a particular character affects the attitude of other characters.

I'm actually anti-score when it comes to text-based games, since I feel it's an anachronism that no longer serves any purpose. However, in a game like this it does serve a purpose in being an easy and convenient way to convey information to the player that the format of the game would otherwise make impossible.

I am debating posting a "repaired" version of what is already posted, once the corrections are made, including a re-enabled recap, or just holding off until all of Act 1 is completed (about halfway through day 3)

I would say hold off on posting an updated version for as long as possible. Preferably until the game is complete. It's frustrating to play a game and be forced to stop midway through because the game isn't complete. It's even more frustrating when the game is as promising as this one is.

[Wolfschadowe]

I think what you should ask yourself is what is the purpose of the score? What value to the player does showing it bring? And is that value worth more than the confusion? It feels to me that, given my limited understanding of your goals, you are better served by not showing the score at all.
Tlaero

Tlaero, I greatly appreciate your advice and definitely learn from it. I ask myself these questions constantly when building out the logic phase of the games (internal scoring and such), and how much to display to the player. It's definitely a tough balance. My philosophy of score is something to use as one of several tools to provide feedback to the player about whether or not they are on the right path, and manage overall difficulty. Other tools being things like positive and negative text or visual feedback, of course.

I really appreciate how you've experimented with scoring and other concepts in your games. Keeley is my all-time favorite game in the genre, and I probably dust it off once or twice a year an play through it again. I think my favorite scoring system was Christine, especially with the multi-layered scoring leading to the alternate ending. Keisha confused me at first until I realized what was going on with good/naughty balancing. I think that was a brilliant concept, although I'm not sure it worked for me as implemented in Keisha. However, it did give me ideas about how to track multiple relationships, especially combined with what was going on with Lindsay behind the scenes. Ultimately, I stole/borrowed the scoring concepts from your games I liked the most, stirred in some of my own ideas to come up with the system in BEW. Thanks for all the inspiration!

Personally, I don't care for warm/cold indicators on relationship (score type text that says "Emily is really happy," or "Faith seems angry") and probably won't include them in this game. I know some folks are great fans of that, and respect it, but it's not me. I also don't want the game to be as easy as hit Save, try an option, load, try an option, load, take the option with the highest score. Save, rinse, repeat. That won't get the optimal path in BEW, but that's not really by design, just a happy side effect. Those that hit Save, and go 4-6 steps or so to see how things play out before loading would likely have better luck. Or, the real score-mongers could turn debug mode on. I added all the relationship scores to the score line in debug mode. Mainly to help me debug, but I'm not going to tell anyone how to enjoy the game, and I don't want to set intentional road blocks for the cheaters either.

One thing I'm debating with myself, and taking opinions on, of course, is whether to disable score completely for hard mode, or give it as a player selectable option, similar to the auto advance option you used in Keisha. Ultimately, whatever I decide on, I'm sure there will be a lot of people that hate my scoring system. Hopefully a few will like it.

However, in a game like this it does serve a purpose in being an easy and convenient way to convey information to the player that the format of the game would otherwise make impossible.

That's pretty much my thought too. With multiple girls, and multiple paths, it makes the game considerably more difficult. Giving the player more tools is beneficial, but I don't want to hand them everything on a silver platter either. Also, basing anything on an all encompassing score at some point to use as a gate, especially as the game progresses, becomes unrealistic. The branching may not be immediately apparent with what's available in just the initial office and bar scenes.

An easy, obvious example would be choosing to go to the strip club rather than the bar. Some non-specific storyline hints in spoiler.

On that path, the player would not meet Faith at all on day 1, but has potential to meet her under different circumstances during day 2 and pursue a relationship path. If Emily and/or the player doesn't show up at the bar, there is still a path available to end up with her. Alternatively, the player could go the entire game without meeting Faith.

I would say hold off on posting an updated version for as long as possible. Preferably until the game is complete. It's frustrating to play a game and be forced to stop midway through because the game isn't complete. It's even more frustrating when the game is as promising as this one is.

Thanks for the compliment about the game being promising! I certainly don't want to burn anyone out with a lot of updates and versions; however, the feedback I've received here has been incredibly valuable to me and has already made the game significantly better in what the end result will be. I would prefer what is here as a "pre-beta", or "work in progress" to be a better representative of what the full game will be. Currently, and subject to change, the options I'm considering are to:

A) Do a total of two more partial releases before completing and releasing the full game. The first would simply be what is already there, with the new difficulty system, and the recap re-enabled. The second would be a "Demo" ending at the end of Act I, around mid-day on Day 3. There's a perfect, natural stopping point there. (First release roughly a week away, second about 2 months later at my current speed.)

B) Do one more partial release containing all of Day 1, including the new difficulty system, and the recap re-enabled. (About a month from now, at my current speed.)

or

C) Leave it as is, and just release the completed game of all three Acts, 7 days. (probably October-ish.)

I'll take votes from all who care to share their opinion. I reserve the right to ignore the majority and do whatever I want, but I'm curious.

Wolfschadowe

[M]

I could see doing the three day demo and then releasing the full game when it's done. That or just holding off until it's completely finished would probably be my vote.

[bigchief]

Thanks for playing the work in progress! Especially for being engaged enough to play 15 times!

Haha, was more like 30-40

Still need to go through the bar scene and look for the best route. I never go looking through the code so it really is trial and error. The 'save' button wasn't working either so it was always back to the beginning :E Going to try on a different PC so I can at least save it when I enter the bar.

Nice to know the ideas behind the variables, once you explain that there are 4 and 2 are hidden, it makes a lot more sense. I'd figured out from the picture responses that somethings I did had a negative/positive effect but nice to know hats actually what's happening.

[SYH]

I'm casting my vote for a demo an then the full game.

I've played it through completely about 10 times thus far. I'm one of those "save, play 4-6 scenes up, restore" players. The Save function was hit-or-miss, so I'd often have to start over. It was worth it.

[tlaero]

I've been toying with the idea of modernizing Keeley 1, updating the code to current and maybe rewriting some of the text. Whether or not to add a visible score is something I'm thinking through now. The idea of making it visible on easy and medium and not on hard is really interesting. I'll give that some thought. I had considered making it a user option, but I'm leaning away from that. I don't know what incentive anyone would have for not showing it. And if there WAS an incentive, then it's really just a difficulty setting.

Regarding how often to release in progress versions of BEW, you should do whatever helps you the most. People playing here in the developer board are beta testers. We're here to help you, not the other way around. Anyone who doesn't want to help you make a better game doesn't need to download interim versions and can just wait for the final release.

As for releasing it on the main board, I think you should wait till it's all done. Unless you're planning to sell it, there's no point in a demo. In every project I always get to a point where I'm like, "Let's release what we have as a demo," and I always stop myself. I know what drives that desire (these things are SO much work) but caving in would be a mistake.

If you're going to sell it, you want a free demo. But don't release the demo until the finished product is ready to be purchased.

Tlaero

[Wolfschadowe]

Haha, was more like 30-40

Still need to go through the bar scene and look for the best route.

I'm glad you're enjoying it.
I'm not sure I even know what the best route is. That probably depends on who you are most interested in. I'd recommend you keep in mind that there are several good paths through the Bar scene that will be built on in day 2. One of my goals with the game is that when it's finished, different people may prefer different endings, and that there is not necessarily a clear "best" ending. There will be clear, "bad" endings, of course.

I could see doing the three day demo and then releasing the full game when it's done. That or just holding off until it's completely finished would probably be my vote.

Thanks for the input!

The Save function was hit-or-miss, so I'd often have to start over. It was worth it.

Glad you're enjoying it. Not sure why the save function is hit or miss. Maybe cookie problems? Have you tried a different browser?

I've been toying with the idea of modernizing Keeley 1

That would be awesome! Especially if you weaved Keeley2 into the daydream section. I know it's not true to the Keeley and Keisha characters...but it's probably what I would be daydreaming about if I was sitting in the gym waiting on them. I've been known to play Keeley, and then open Keeley 2 in a new browser at the appropriate point, I have to admit.

If you're going to sell it

Not planning to sell it. I'm just doing it for fun. Of course, I wouldn't say no to someone with a burning desire to PayPal me a couple bucks, although it's not expected.

No matter what route I take, I'll put out a call for up to 5 playtesters after I complete each day, and provide them a private link. Even if I do a "demo" release, it would just be here. Nothing for the main board until the full game is completed.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and input!

Wolfschadowe

[ltpika]

I would ask you to consider not making the game a full week. I feel conflicted saying that as the game is great and of course I want more of it, but at the same time I feel the excellent level of complexity would be hard to maintain over a long development cycle. You see it in a lot of games, they feel "front loaded" with all the good stuff in the beginning, when it was being developed with fresh eyes. Naturally, fatigue might set in and the game's ending could suffer for it. So it might be wise to cut down the number of days the game covers.

Either that or don't work on it chronologically and just make as epic a finale as possible. That way if some of the stuff in the middle is a little shorter, we'll be so blown away by the ending, nobody will notice. It might require more work rewriting lines to fit with stuff you develop in the middle, so that's something to consider. But you'll avoid the dreaded Mass Effect 3 scenario.

[Wolfschadowe]

Naturally, fatigue might set in and the game's ending could suffer for it. So it might be wise to cut down the number of days the game covers.
...
Either that or don't work on it chronologically and just make as epic a finale as possible. That way if some of the stuff in the middle is a little shorter, we'll be so blown away by the ending, nobody will notice.
...
But you'll avoid the dreaded Mass Effect 3 scenario.

Thanks for the advice Itpika. I'm actually charting and story boarding it non-chronologically, although I'm rendering chronologically. I've seen what you describe as well, and I confess, I worry about it happening sometimes in this. At one time I was thinking of releasing three games, one for each of the 3 acts for BEW. But when I started thinking about persistent save files and continuity across three separate games, I broke out into a cold sweat. The complexity isn't as bad as it seems though. A majority of time is just waiting for the images to render, and meanwhile I"m playing ME3, or Skyrim, or SimCity, or whatever. Luckily my system's beefy enough I can render and game at the same time, I just restrict DAZ to 6 of the 8 processors and game on.

I'm probably one of the few people who actually liked the ME3 ending, apart from the push button, choose which end cut scene to watch, at least they handled it better than in Deus Ex Human Revolution.

Wolfschadowe