Modified Erosgames

[Salamandastron]

Hey dividead - sorry, man. My HDD crashed a while back, and the 'games' were part of the data that was lost. In hindsight, they were quite boring thanks to their linear nature, so you're not missing out on much. I was just experimenting to see if I could find a decent shortcut to making an interactive game using pre-existing photos, but in the end, it was far from convincing enough. Ultimately, if you want something done right, you have to put in the hours, I guess.

[Mimailia]

... theoatmeal.com ...The one on Nikola Tesla is definitely worth a visit

Speechless!

Before this, Nikola Tesla was a stat increase in Fallout (I think), and a movie on Netflix. (He actually mentions that the movie is worth a look.)

Thanks Victor, and Greebo, for the unbelievable eye-opener. Damned American school education that conveniently chooses the information that best suits its need.

M

[Victor]

You walk into a store with Euros. They say they only take dollars. Does that make it okay to shoplift from the store?

The end result of this is that people like me stop making the content you consume. I guess at that point you folks can start making your own movies, tv shows, and games.

Tlaero

Hello Tlaero.

If I will follow your logic (I.E. Its purely my problem that I was born, grew up and decided to live in central Europe), then I get to the point, that I cannot consume the content people like you are making in the first place.

So...... Why should I care if you stop making it? It is not like I can legally obtain it anyhow so I dont have to care about its existence/nonexistence, right?
If I am to decide here, I will keep obtaining content people like you produce. I really dont feel like doing anything wrong, because frankly, I cant legally buy the product people like you make. Maybe one day, people like you decide that they want to make the product legally available even in Europe. Maybe even in my country. But they will have to throw a big, really big advertising campaign when the do it. Because after nearly two decades, people like me mostly decided not to waste their time searching stores and internet for legal way to buy it, cause we simply arent finding one.
For example, if LoP/Leonizer (Sex and glory), can accept money from any corner of the world (or at least Europe), why people like you cant?

Or to use two sentences only: Internet is world wide and we live in 21 century. This store should accept any kind of money all around the globe and it is their problem if they dont.

[tlaero]

<shrugs> You're stealing. Justify it however you want, but you're stealing. If you went to a farm and asked to buy some fresh produce, and the farmer said, "We don't sell to Eastern Europeans," you'd feel justified in coming back that night at taking his lettuce.

Governments make it hard to officially sell products in their countries. Taxes vary wildly. Censorship laws vary widely. Required ratings boards vary widely. Some countries refuse to sell products that have violence in them. Some refuse to sell products that depict women in positions of power. Some ban anything that suggests the government might be wrong. And god help you if your product has a map. There's rioting in the streets if your country disagrees with your neighbor about a boundary and my map uses the neighbor's choice.

If I jump through all the hoops for your country, find the right tax code, submit to the right review board, change my imagery to pass your censors, make a special map that matches your country's view of the world, and then sell the product, will I recoup my costs? No I won't, because in your country, people like you will use the smallest excuses to justify stealing it. "You don't make it easy enough for me to buy it." "You charge too much." "You're greedy and don't deserve my hard earned money." (Even though I worked longer hours creating the content you're stealing than you worked earning your money.)

So we try. Everyone steals it anyway. We lose money in the process. And we stop trying.

I've said what I'm going to say on this. Until you spend large portions of your life producing something only to have people tell you how happily they steal it, I don't think I'm going to get my point across. I mean, you and Greebo could at least have the decency to not flaunt the stealing it in my face and encourage other people to do it.

Tlaero

[Greebo]

I would point out that my primary input to this topic was a warning not to take advantage of Erosgames material without the permission of the owners, particularly since they had been commercially involved comparatively recently and could still have a financial interest -- I am not entirely without commercial morals, despite my alley cat persona! On the other hand, dangle a catnip mouse in front of me and leave easy access to it while denying me the means of trading for it, I may well take it anyway, leaving the trade option open until you make negotiations possible. In the instance of e-goods the 'mouse' is no loss to you until you make trade possible!

[dividead]

Hey dividead - sorry, man. My HDD crashed a while back, and the 'games' were part of the data that was lost. In hindsight, they were quite boring thanks to their linear nature, so you're not missing out on much. I was just experimenting to see if I could find a decent shortcut to making an interactive game using pre-existing photos, but in the end, it was far from convincing enough. Ultimately, if you want something done right, you have to put in the hours, I guess.

Alright man, it is a pity as I found then "very entertaining" ^^. But stuff like that happens, Anyways man thanks for the reply

[Victor]

Hello Tlaero.

With all due respect, you are doing the same mistake many people do. Stealing does not equal piracy.

Somebody /let say Peter/ steals my car: He gains the car, I loose the car. I dont really care if Peter has a car, I care that I bought a car and now I dont have it. The thing that is lost is the actual object (in this case, car).
Somebody /let say me/ pirates your game: I gain game, you dont loose the game. You prolly dont care if I have the game - you care if I bought your game. The thing that is lost is profit (money you would normally do via me buying your game).
I.E. Stealing - I am loosing the actual object and thus, I cant use it anymore. Piracy - You are loosing profit, but you can still have and can use the product itself.
That is actually a big difference.

Quote: "If you went to a farm and asked to buy some fresh produce, and the farmer said, "We don't sell to Eastern Europeans," you'd feel justified in coming back that night at taking his lettuce."
1. That farmer is a very bad buisnessman.
2. That farmer is racist. I consider that worse then theft or piracy. (And I am white male from the upper class).
3. In terms of stealing, yes, taking his product against his will would be a crime, I agree.
4. In terms of piracy, no, he is not giving me chance to pay him - I.E. He cant make profit from me, I.E. He is not loosing anything by me pirating it. So, no harm done.

If you dont allow me to buy your game via ANY at least a little reasonable legal way, you CANNOT make any profit from me. Currently, the only way how can I legally buy some products is by buying in american store and then let them ship it to... no wait. I cannot legally do that. I have to use fake ID (adress, mail, actually once, I had to input VISA code from a card, that was NOT fabricated in Europe. Like... REALLLYY? You really dont want my money so bad?) .... ..... ...... (not sure if that is ilegal, but it is definitely beyond reasonable).

After I finished reading those many and many problems you described involved in the process of allowing the game to be available in some country.... I must say I value Leonizer effort even more now. Such a hard labor he must have done to allow even me pay for his premium content. Thank You Leo!
But who I admire even more is Gabe Newell (you definitely know him, he runs Valve and Steam, which makes his products available even in my country. Hell, he must have done so much hard labor, right? ) For those who dont know Gabe - He is a game maker/producer like Tlaero. To quote him: " Piracy was never one of our your top ten issues." or my favorite: "Piracy is a result of bad service."
I will not post another link (no more Oreo! :-) ), but if you want to see interwiev with him, open youtube and type in: Gabe Newell Piracy.

So in the end... It is obviously possible to distribute games in my country in universal format (Steam, Lesson of Passion), and it is prolly not really expensive (Unless Leo is a multimillionare). With all due respect (As I love your Christine game) either do the same thing they did, or at least have the decency not to accuse me of crime. If you decide its not worth it to you to try make a profit from me... then by pirating, I am not harming you. You decided that you cannot make that profit.

[Victor]

To be absolutely exact:

Youtube - Gabe Newell on Good Game - Piracy, distribution and service part of the interview starts after the first minute.

[Squeeky]

There seems to be issues about "splitting straws".

The fact really remains that if there is a product, no matter how it is clothed and there is a price for its acquisition, then gaining it by not fulfilling the financial obligation is immoral; you sneak into a Circus under the tent cover, you shoplift, you download a package with a crack code, yes there are differences in the product but each is surely some form of theft however the action is defined.

[neon]

The issue I think is that there actually is no sale lost by the company due to his acquisition elsewhere. He had no ability to buy the product, and thus cannot be viewed by the company as a potential customer, meaning the company is not damaged financially. The issue would come if he then takes the product and distributes it to other people who are potential customers (which you could argue torrent seeding does, assuming that is the way in which it was acquired).

[fleet]

Enough excuses.
If a game or movie or music is not available for sale in your country, do a search and buy an imported copy. I waited two years for the game Venetica to be legally released in English, and ended up buying an import from a vendor in the United Kingdom.
If it's an older game, look for a used copy.
If you can't wait and do steal a copy, when the game/movie/music becomes legally available, buy it.

[mattius77]

The contorted mental gymnastics on display here would be comical if they were put forth in a farce. But people actually believe that downloading content without paying for it is not stealing. That is, of course, completely absurd.

Comments like "If you decide its not worth it to you to try make a profit from me... then by pirating, I am not harming you" and "there actually is no sale lost by the company due to his acquisition elsewhere" as some kind of a delusional justification for piracy is asinine. It passes neither logical scrutiny nor (in most countries) legal analysis. A sale most definitely was lost, because someone ended up with the content without paying for it. There is no gray area. If a good is not commercially available in your territory, guess what? You don't get to possess the product.... by whatever means it ends up nesting on your hard drive.

Only in the world of intellectual property do people seem to buy into this ludicrous notion of non-stealing en masse.