question

[coder]

I have a question to the moderators. I created a scrïpt in gimp to turn a photo in a cartoon:





(click on the picture to view them better)

The first image is copyrighted. If I would use the second image in a game, would I be allowed to post the game here? Since technically it won't hold any copyrighted images.

[Graen]

Not a moderator... but I would have to go with a definite "No." That's not to say other people haven't used copyrighted material and gotten away with posting it here as their own, or at the very least not given proper credit to the owners of said material, e.g. some RAG games as well as some "dating" simulators.

There are talented artists here on the forums, and If you think you've got a good idea for a game, then I would encourage you to share your ideas with them and ask if they will assist you.

[coder]

I would not have expected any different answer from you. You have a more strict attitude towards copyright than I do, as I've seen so far.

If you can draw, you can draw something you see. This could also be a picture. In this case my computer did the drawing for me. It saw the picture and made its own representation.

I don't really have a good idea for a game. I wrote a game engine in html/javascrïpt last year, which is quite flexible and bugfree (at least in firefox, I have not tested it intensively in other browsers). I just would like to use that engine and improve it, so it will be 100% bug-free in all browsers. And creating a game would be the best test for it. After that others can use the engine if they like.

[Graen]

Heh, as I said, I'm not a moderator. This is shark's place and he makes the rules. The moderators only do their best to interpret and enforce those rules.

So ultimately, if you want an answer to your question, you're going to want it from shark.

That said, I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation of your computer's "drawing." Applying a few filters to an image is not creating a new, nor unique, work of art. But that's just my opinion.

[coder]

Well, just to argue the point: it's new, tt wasn't there before it was deduced from the original. It's also unique, though it resembles the original, it's not an exact copy. I think you can view it like a cover or a remix.

I've also had to learn the filters of gimp and the way layers can interact to get the effect I wanted. I took me quite some time to get a sequence that would look good on all pictures.

I know you're not a moderator. I has been some time since I last was active here, but I can still read and see who's a mod or not ;) I just like a bit of discussion and exploring the boundaries.

And I could also manipulate those pictures by hand. Giving her a different haircolor for example, or combine pictures to create new ones.

[LRM]

I too am not a moderator but must agree with Graen.
Shark is the creator and copyright holder of many images. He is most cautious of copyright infringement for that reason.
Imagine you create your game and copyright it as CoderGame1. I get a copy, crack your security, turn the blond to a red head, change 3 or 4 lines of text and release it as MyPirateGame1.
How happy would you be? I suppose you would do everything in your power to stop me from marketing of your game under my name.
The photos you scanned and converted to an image are no different.
L
If In doubt, a PM from you to Shark will stop all discussion.

[coder]

Discussion can be quite educative and fun, and for me it's most fun if you take the opposite viewpoint of the majority, because then you have to defend well and look hard to find convincing arguments. :)

And, I personally plan to publish the game under the creative common's licence for non commercial use. If it would be commercial it would be a totally different thing for me. Then you should pay the original creator for his/her part, just like it's done in the music industry. This would be more like a fan game.

Translatio, imitatio, aemulatio

[Mimailia]

coder wrote : I just like a bit of discussion and exploring the boundaries.

Yes I, too, love a good discussion. Explore the boundaries of the law is fine, please don't explore Shark's boundaries. He doesn't need the worry.

M

[Squeeky]

It has been correctly stated that we, as moderators, attempt to interpret Shark's rules. Certainly we may have had input in the formation of some, but ultimately the final decision is that of Shark.

My personal interpretation, and it is akin to that already expressed, is one of intellectual property. Even though you are modifying it you are still using the intellectual property of someone else.

I haven't explored sites but are there places like DAZ which offer 2D freebie models against which there would be not perceived impediment?

[coder]

I allready figured out the answer.
I believe to post a game here with a direct link, I need to be the copyrightholder of the proposed material. Since I don't think I can claim copyright, the answer would be no.

[Greebo]

You would need either to be the copyright holder or show you have their permission.

[ExLibris]

For a derivative work not to infringe on the copyright of the original work, it has to have sufficient originality of its own.
The classic example is Marcel Duchamp's L.H.O.O.Q., which is basically the Mona Lisa with a moustache but is still considered to be original in its own right because of the way it parodied the obsessions of the French bourgeoisie at the time.
I'm no lawyer, but I doubt 'cartoonifying' an existing image would count as an original work.

For a better explanation (written by people with law degrees) see http://www.chillingeffects.org/derivative/

[coder]

Thanks for the link. It's interesting, though it's about U.S. law and I live in the Netherlands and this site is hosted in France. But I wasn't so much arguing about the legality. I just wanted to point out that there's a thin line between a derivative work being original or not.

If I would draw them with a pen and scan those works, more people would considerate it an original work. Especially if that would chance the composition and the coloring scheme, maybe even a slight change in perspective.

Since I can't draw, I could alternatively combine elements of different photos and create something new, new composition, I also saw some youtube movies of doing the proces by hand with photoshop. I even know of an artist who takes photos and draws a different layer on it with a ball point, to make the photo gain more perspective.

I've manipulated a couple of sets I found on the internet. And I do find they have a different feel to them than the originals did. I wanted to create my own game for some time now and I first tried it with photos and it lacks uniformity in that way. This trick helps in making it look more uniform. One must admit it's more original than just reusing the photos.

I'm still going to create something as soon as I have sufficient material to do so. I can still post it on a different site and post a link to that site here. That's still allowed. :)

Edit: After reading a bit more on the link you gave, I realize it actually show how thin the line is.