Free games

[kessie8dn]

Yeah, a few years ago I checked here on an almost daily basis if some new game came out. I still like the lagoon, but with everything you post you could offend someone, threads are deleted without any reason given and regarded messages don't get answerd. Good people like BBBen oder Palmer (two of the few people that keep AIF alive) get constantly blamed If they post something about their projects and to often people are treated in a unfriendly way.

But all in all I'm stuck here for a long time and enjoy reading, but I think that some rules and policies here are just wrong. Of cause it's right, that not every cheap *** rpg maker / renpy games get its platform, but I think in some cases the rules are applied to strictly and the kindness suffers

But don't get me to wrong, I still love this place

I kind of agree.. The lagoon rules do seem to have changed a lot since I first visited and I'm not exactly clear what is and is not allowed anymore.. I fully support removing links to hacked versions of games that should be paid for but I've seen links to games being removed where the explaination for doing so is far from clear. Possibly something has been lost in translation, I don't know. It's got to the stage where I'll only post links from the LoP group and Pusooy (you should be safe with anyone who has an ad on Shark's home page, although that's not always been 100% certain). The thing is we all know about those because the ads are on Sharks home page, but what's the chance of finding some little gem that's hidden away somewhere when nobody is sure about what they can and can't post? Finding those hidden gems is what I thought the lagoon used to do so well.

When I first visited the lagoon it seemed its purpose was to be a place to promote the genre, with an emphasis on Shark's games of course. While other people's new games did appear frequently many were total dross, of course, but once you got your eye in you knew the names to look for... and every now and then somebody else would surprise us all. Having Shark drop a new game was (and still is) the best part of all, but we'd find a lot of stuff to keep us occupied while we waited.

While I'm here - This remains very much a cottage industry but I find it a bit disappointing that after so long we are still faced with the free-for-all when it comes to working out how to access a game, the countless different "membership" schemes, etc. It didn't take the world very long to agree VHS was preferable to Betamax when huge corporations were involved, so I don't see why it should take so many years for a few developers to get a consensus.

For example, wouldn't it be a great help if the developers could get together and agree to use a single download site (eg megaupload, or whatever) so we poor customers could at least decide whether it's worth parting with our hard-earned to be able to get fast downloads - but games are spread over so many sites you'd have to have a lot of money to subscribe to them all.. and you'd never remember which one needs to be cancelled. If they approached some of these sites as a group they may even be able to get a better deal for themselves than they can as individuals too. In which case everybody wins... Society of Online Adult Games Developers, anyone?

I'm not asking for someone to explain anything or give me a long list of reasons why things are not possible - I'm just putting it out there as food for thought.

[LRM]

In My Opinion... Shark likes to play others adult games as well.
Again In My Opinion, it bothers him to no end to go to a site to play someone's game only to find "You must pay to play" (me too).

IMO megaupload or any "we pay you for putting your game here" is a backdoor way for the author to once again get in my pocket!
It's also totally unnecessary... MediaFire, Dropbox, and other sites don't play "pay or take forever to download". If the game author is only interested in sharing her/his game these sites do that without punishing anyone wanting to play them.

I think when Shark initially created this site he was (and still is) interested in playing all adult games as long as they are free! You shouldn't have to pay a fee to find the author of the game is more interested in having you fund his internet site then providing an entertaining game. As I've said before, some of the pay sites that do now post here, were free at the onset. Shark continues to honor agreements made many years ago and gets my respect for doing that.
Lou

[shark]

True, the rules have changed since the creation of the lagoon, but this is because game creators have changed...
At the beginning of the website, everyone wanted to try to create a game and was proud to share it and I encouraged this creation. But now, many want to earn money and they use the lagoon only as a advertising billboard.
I am not against encouraging the authors, but many of them do not even ask the authorization to post their advertising in the aim to collect new "pat reons" and I don't like this.
Yes, the world of games has changed a lot....

[Köpi]

One thing that most of the authors do (by my experience) is, that players have to pay vor the newest build of their game and the previous version of the game is for free. And the final version is avaible to the public a few days or week after the private release. I think you should consider to allow those type of projects. I think it's a fair concept.

[shark]

It's also necessary that the final version exists... Some projects are never completed and yet, the authors continue to ask for money.
I don't forbid all patr.eon projects but I think it's correct that the author asks permission before posting.

[Tao Dude]

It's also necessary that the final version exists... Some projects are never completed and yet, the authors continue to ask for money.
I don't forbid all patr.eon projects but I think it's correct that the author asks permission before posting.

Absolutely agree, shark. If people want to make money from their game creations, it's unreasonable to promote it here for free and not even ask first.

[tlaero]

I obviously don't speak for shark, but I think I understand that what he wants the lagoon to be is a community where like-minded people hang out and talk about things, especially erotic games. That's a different goal than being the definitive list of erotic games.

Assuming I understand correctly, I support the "community" goal. If it weren't for the supportive community here (especially their attitudes toward women), I never would have posted. And, had I never posted, I wouldn't have ever made Adventure Creator or any of my games. If you like those things, they're a direct result of the lagoon being a community instead of a games list. I'm unaware of a better place on the net with a solid and supportive community that talks about erotic games.

That said, it does feel like the water is slowly draining from the lagoon. I'm a bit concerned that some of the rules are restricting some of the discussions we would have had in the past. That seems to be making for less discussion, which makes for less reason to check in, which makes for still less discussion, which could eventually lead to an empty lagoon.

Shark, this is your place, and you're completely in your right to impose any rules you want. I will follow those rules regardless of what you do. But in order to keep the water here warm, I would like to suggest a few changes to your rules.

1) I think all people should be allowed to post about any game that has at least 10 minutes of free gameplay, regardless of whether the poster includes a link to his pat.reon site or asks for money, etc. If there's enough free gameplay for a lagooner to play and get a feel for whether the game is worthwhile, then it's helpful for the rest of us to hear about it. If, on the other hand, someone just makes 10 minutes of wandering around in RPGMaker with two hentai pictures in an attempt to get patrons, no one will respond and the thread will be pushed down by active threads. No real harm to the lagoon.

2) I think you should remove the restriction on the word "pat.reon." If people are making games or parts of games that people can play for free and trying to fund their development with pat.reon, I don't think it hurts the lagoon. There are reprehensible people out there who are milking patrons for money, but it's not the lagoon's job to punish them. A better way to punish them is to fill the lagoon with conversations about better games more deserving of patrons and starve out the reprehensible ones. Educate the potential patrons with examples of good pat.reon backed stuff and the reprehensible people won't get any patrons.

3) (If you implement this one, you can skip suggestion #1, since it would be covered by this.) I think you should split the "All Sexy Games" board into two boards. "All Free Sexy Games" and "All Paid Sexy Games." Anyone who makes a game that costs money or a subscription to play should post it in the Paid board, including longtime Lagooners like LOP and VDateGames. And, any time anyone makes a free game (including LOP and VDateGames), it should go in the Free board. Make the rules consistent for everyone and people will stop being confused by them. Games behind a paywall that eventually are free should start in the Paid board and get migrated to the Free board when they become free.

That way, if people just want to find free games, they can. And if other people want to find all games, they can as well. An interesting gray line here is people who release a free game to patrons a week early. That seems like it would belong in the "Free" board, not the "Paid" board. But I'm not sure where the cutoff is. One week delay is Free. One year delay is Paid. What about a month? Two weeks? I'm not sure.

Tlaero

[deartracy]

From my point of view... the current comunity goal, as named it Taero, is a nonsense. It is quite hard to me to understand why some games are allowed are some are not, cause sometimes I see paid games allowed and others not, being the quality of the second ones way higher than the first ones.

Y current feelings with this board are two:

First, shark games had become old. The gameplay mechanics had not evolved and they had been becoming boring. To me it is a problem.

Second, the weird management of the rules seems though not to control quality neither fairness between quality, it seems though to censor with some non understable standards. I don't get it.

But I come here from time to time, to find something new... that I know that in most cases, will dissapear in some days or weeks.

From my perspective, these are sings of a death in progress comunity.

[shark]

Thanks for these good ideas, tlaero, I'll think about when I return from vacation.

[Crane]

I`ve been part of Lagoon since few months only and not even a very active member. But an opinion won`t hurt anyone i suppose.

There`ve been some moral ground rules here that have made Lagoon a special place. No abusive pseudo-creators and some other rules about paid games etc.

I don`t know if Lagoon will change its rules but i believe when times change the rules should change too. The same rules that make you successful under certain circumstances can fail you big when those circumstances change.

Can Lagoon be open to all games and still promote the best ones? I`m talking about what Tlaero called "educating the patrons". (I think i know exactly what she meant by that but i would prefer to call it "promotion". It`s ironic but i think nowadays "educating" sounds more like forcing and manipulating while "promoting" sounds like "giving a chance".)

I know this means to change Lagoon for good, and pardon my pun, maybe for the worse. Let me be honest i find it not an easy challenge AT ALL. When you release an aquarium fish in the sea you can`t know for sure it won`t die or won`t be eaten but is there any other choice?

[TheBrain]

I agree with most things tlaero said. In essence, Patr€on isn't what defines the problem, it is the attitude of the game creator. There are high quality games on there that are clearly in our interests to be posted and discussed on here. And there are low quality games that basically are just looking for cash by teasing people with the greatest of promises, while having a demo that allows you to say hi to one character.

But I don't see a problem per se with a game being on Patr€on to ask for support from those who are willing to give it. Games take time and resources (3D assets etc) to create. If I were to create a game I'd take the opportunity to ask for some support, and there are not many creators out there that wouldn't. To refuse creators the ability to at least provide a link to their Patr€on page will drive them away from this forum. This, of course, does not mean you have to allow people to practically beg for cash, just allow a polite link like "If you liked the game, please consider supporting us here: <link>".

On tlaero's point 1 and 3: I think the main criterium for a free game is that it can be played with no obvious "premium" roadblocks, and that it has some semblance of a game with actual gameplay. As a free player, I don't mind being one step behind in production, but I get annoyed if I get halfway the game and get a big Patr€on screen saying "donate to reach ending x". And a game of which only an introductory chapter is available should really be advertised as a demo for a paid game rather than a free game (until it has developed more substance).

A split in a free and premium board would be nice. Alternatively you could enforce the use of tags such as "[Free]" and "[Premium]", so people know what the thread is about. Also, try to rely on the community to report when things are posted in the wrong place (or with wrong tags), instead of the current "delete first, ask questions later" attitude. With clear rules on what can be posted and where, I don't see why a creator would always have to ask for permission. If someone breaks the rules, for example when someone posts a demo and claims it's a free and playable game, I would happily report it to be moved/deleted. There's little harm in a "bad thread" being up for a day or two while it's being dealt with.

I would also ask you to consider letting people post links to games of which they are not the creator. If I see an interesting game I would like to be able to share and discuss it here. Obvious violations would be games with referral links or links that bypass the creators own website.

[yahoo]

I agree with most things tlaero said. In essence, Patr€on isn't what defines the problem, it is the attitude of the game creator. There are high quality games on there that are clearly in our interests to be posted and discussed on here. And there are low quality games that basically are just looking for cash by teasing people with the greatest of promises, while having a demo that allows you to say hi to one character.

Mentioning creator attitude touches a nerve here. Patr€on only made the problem more apparent. It existed forever. There was a community that churned out free games once in a while, and sure, quality was all over the place, but at least you didn't have to pay for anything.

Point is, it's not just Patr€on. There are paid sites which don't update frequently enough or where the creator runs four different platforms, each of which is a separate monthly subscription, and only releases one game each month (if it doesn't happen to slip), but collects money from all four. And the general quality of updates is slipping instead of improving, to the point where older free releases are better (as in more enjoyable and more playable) than the recent premium ones.

Back before coinslot (re new Patr€on logo), there were some commercial creators that made both free and premium games, where the free games typically had good quality and most of the premium titles were good as well and they were accepted here and by extension, are given a pardon from making money through advertising here.

I think that ought to end. I'm not sure how many resources the server has and whether it's possible to accommodate all commercial titles, but if possible, it would be vastly better than focusing on free games only.

I have a couple of suggestions how to do it:
1. Separate the "Sexy Games" forum in two sections: Free Sexy Games and Premium Sexy Games. No free rides in the former. If the game is a demo for a premium game, if it's an older release, that has to be clearly stated in the topic of the thread.
2. If a game was premium and became free, move the thread to the Free Games forum.
3. Allow total free for all for critics in the Premium forum. Other than profanity, unfair accusations and incorrect statements, everything goes, including totally panning the game. No catering to creators. The creator has no right to demand a thread to be taken down, locked or valid criticism censored.
4. Separate the "Projects" forum to "Projects" and "Unfinished Commercial and Crowdfunded Projects and Games".
5. In the latter forum, allow even more freedom. Again, profanity, false statements and obviously unfair accusations shouldn't be allowed, but other than that, including speculation on the project's demise, should totally be allowed.
6. Same goes for the Art forum section. If it's a premium comic, by all means write a review in the premium section and feel free to pan it totally.
7. Any and all content behind a paywall is not allowed in the free sections.
8. Posting a premium thread in the free section by a new member is a speedy deletion of the thread and a semi-permanent (one year?) ban of the creator attempting this. If the creator is publicly known, he will be notified of this on Patr€on to be aware of this permanent ban in case somebody else was pretending to be him or her.
9. Opening a thread for a premium title in the free section by a seasoned member (>50 posts, >6 months) will result in the thread being moved to the premium section, and the thread poster reprimanded. Repeat offences will result in more strict measures.
10. Open a new section called "New Creators seeking Patrons". Let's see where that gets us. New members (let's say, anything less than six months and 50 posts) are not allowed to create threads in the premium sections on their own, they need to find a patron that will open a thread for them.
11. Every such patron that agrees to open a thread for a creator must be given access to a premium version of the content for free and the thread must include a fair and independent review of the content by the patron.
12. Creators may only have one open thread in this forum.
13. Once the game is reviewed and posted to the premium forum by the chosen patron, the thread can be closed, allowing another thread to be opened by the creator. At least a month needs to pass since the thread is closed.
14. Patrons can only back one project per month, so the creators really need to go out of their way to advertise to potential patrons.
15. Patrons abusing the privilege to get free content will have the right of patronage suspended.

Since the Lagoon is an attractive place for creators due to a large audience, I believe these changes have the potential to make the community far more vibrant.

By the way, I believe this is under EU law (it certainly applies in Poland and the rationale was aligning with EU law), all remote purchases are fully refundable in 14 days without stating a reason. All digital content other than software must be fully refundable if it's unfit for purpose, low quality, etc., up to two years since the purchase. The said flaw must have existed in the good at the time of its sale, and the buyer needs to make the seller aware of this as soon as possible after discovering the flaw or this privilege is null and void (Polish law stipulates 14 days). I haven't yet attempted to take advantage of it for Patr€on itself, but I have already taken advantage of this rule a number of times in other media, including steam and various paysites.
If the creator on Patr€on fails to come through with their promises, I believe it should be possible to get a refund (perhaps not including site fees, but certainly including VAT). This might actually make creators more active and achieve higher quality for all, since it would be enforced by the site itself, since failure to refund this in obvious cases of abuse, they could likely end up banned in the EU.

[kessie8dn]

True, the rules have changed since the creation of the lagoon, but this is because game creators have changed...
At the beginning of the website, everyone wanted to try to create a game and was proud to share it and I encouraged this creation. But now, many want to earn money and they use the lagoon only as a advertising billboard.
I am not against encouraging the authors, but many of them do not even ask the authorization to post their advertising in the aim to collect new "pat reons" and I don't like this.
Yes, the world of games has changed a lot....

Thanks Shark... While I fully take your point about the Pat(reon)'s and people blagging your site for free advertising.. However from the little I've seen of the Pat(reon) types, very few of them finish a game and I think lagooners are wily enough to know when they're being fleeced.

I never have signed up for monthly payments and I never will (Chaotic, please take note), I just wait the 3 hours it takes for the free (part finished) games to download. Most often I am disappointed, the problem with having reliable reviews to help to decide. Surely only a fool would be pumping money into them every month? For all I know I may be doing some of the Pat's a disservice, there may be some extremely devoted ones out there producing excellent completed games, but with a blanket ban imposed I will never know because I have nobody to tell me.

LRM's comments about Dropbox & Mediafire kind of illustrate my other point - Why aren't all the dev's getting together and using those kind of sites? My only explanation is some devs and the download sites are the same person(s). It doesn't seem to make much sense otherwise to get people to pay to be your Pat's then pay again to download the stuff they should aleady be entitled to. Right?

Best regards

[Guntag]

I will just say that I what quite shocked to see how BBBen was treated.
He released (and still does) free games since before this board was created. The only difference is before, we didn't see the progress he made on his work and got it for free when it was ready. Now people can pay to see the progress and everyone can get the game for free when it's done, like any other free game.
I understand for a new author, but for a veteran like him, I find it quite insulting...

[MaxCarna]

Well, as the subject has been popped up, I will spoke about my experience

I used to play all of Tlaero's games until she started working with Mortze who had a blog. Entering his page, I read that he started to develop games not so long ago, which showed me that it was possible to enter this world. So I sent him a message, with no great expectations for an answer, but he answered me very carefully and a certain moment he directed me to create an account in this forum.

I started to interact a lot on Workshop of creators, and learn alot from Lagon's members (I helped others too I hope) until I was ready to be part of a game creation. I was very excited to show it up, especially to people who help me to learn all that stuff. I also joined Pat.reon looking mainly in reasons to invest more on game creation. The process has many costs, I spent more than $1,000.00 on Daz marketplace, many props that I learned latter that was not what I was thinking, basically I threw money in the trash. Hardware too, I changed my gtx 970 for a gtx 1070. Recently I bought a second gtx 1070 as I learn that Iray doesn't need SLI (my current motherboard can't make SLI). Without Patr.eon help, it wouldn't be possible to make all these tests, new experimentations and keep doing this.

I was disappointed when I first read the topic "Want to earn money by posting your project? Read this!". I took sometime to get courage enough to send Shark a private message asking permission to post the game link. Fortunately he authorized and I posted on the Projects section. I don't think all creator's aspirants will risk sending the message.

Summarizing my opinion is that the fact of being on Pat.reon does not define the author's profile. DarkCookie, for example, is one of the authors that I saw with the highest billing on Pat.reon, he don't charge nothing for his releases, the pledge tiers are all about interaction in game's development. Right now I am working on a second game, I would like to share it here in the early stages (not completed), to get others authors opinion. The game will probably has a Pat.reon link to make it development viable, so I don't know were I can post it. Tlaero's suggestions would be great for me.