Redemption for Jessika (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

[Greyelf]

... That's NOT how it works for men. USUALLY when a man likes a band or a singer, he likes their music. He's not in love with any of them. He may even feel them a real turn off.

ROFLOL!!

While this may be true for some men (and you may be one of them) I think you may be generalizing your own opinions onto the common man, that or I must know a large number of Unusual males and The Music Industry has seriously stuffed up their research for the male related demographics.
Think of the time/effort/money wasted producing all those posters bought by male consumers to 'look' at, the time/effort/money spent clothing/lighting/choreographing the band members (both on stage and in videos) to appeal to the male consumer, it all has been a total waste.

note: The above assumes that the bands in question contains members of the gender that the male in question is interested in sexually.

[ihutch]

...
Marc is, in my opinion, the most desirable guy I've put in any of my games. I actually reduced the interactivity in the game so that you guys couldn't screw up how awesome he is. (-: He's not an action star, but, frankly, that's not what women ... well, at least me, want in a man. He's so supportive, and understanding, and sensitive... That kind of stuff matters (to me, at least). Jess was going to drink herself to death, and in the course of the game, Marc basically saves her life. As she said, he's her hero. He'd be mine too. ...

Mmmm .... thinks about how i view my self .... I would try and claim copyright of my real life image .... " okay so i am not a court clark but that is not to say i dont like some heavy rock now and then though " but seeing as I like Marc just the way he is and my first playthrough was as I said before "my first play through score of 72 and certainly no more than 80" i feel rather pleased ....

I love games with the main POV male character being a nice guy .... even if they appear weak ... everyone has their own idea of who their "Hero" is .....

Then again I could be a fanboy of just awesome work. ..... and "personally do not change how you do things ... Tlaero ..." it is fine the way it is ...

...

Question for you folks. Would you consider the POV characters in these games to be stronger if I worked at showing their other interests? (Interests besides the pretty woman.) Is the concern that Marc is weak, or is it really that my characterization of him is? I could certainly put more effort into giving the POVs a more involved backstory. Would people like that more or less? On one hand, knowing more about the character could be interesting, but on the other, it would likely pull you farther away from him. The more you know about him, the less he's like you. I seriously don't know the answer to these questions and would love to hear opinions on them.

Tlaero

I do not know the answer to the above. Each work of fiction is in itself "a living work of art" so it really depends on the current work. You could end up making prequel games about characters just to you can provide back story. This would likely answer questions and provide a cause and event for characters behavior/quirks.

In terms of character design and creating personalities authors are likely to ask questions along following lines;

Does the character have main or supporting part in the story?
(for me if it is a main character then the following questions need to be considered)

Do I like the character?
(most likely yes or else you would not create them, but this really is to help you think is the character complete to how I imagine them? , or is something missing a little niggle)
Sometimes a character is created by an author , loved then hated or hated then loved .....

Is the character one dimensional? (mostly "yes" on supporting characters, and for main characters "no" unless you plan on a game series where you examine different personality traits in each game)

Does the character have some strange like/dislikes? ( events can always explain these )

Could you create a complete new game "prequel" just to cover a back story? (This and answers above ... well you get an answer)#

I am sure there are more questions .... but i think the above are the obvious ones....

[anggus]

I was planning to talk about interactivity first, but since this came up again, let's talk about Marc.
Ares, in particular, thank you for your feedback. I find it very helpful. I hope this doesn't come across as me justifying myself. I'm just trying to explain my thought process here. There's nothing wrong with people's opinions on whether or not Marc is weak. These are just mine.

We have differing opinions on what a woman wants in a man.

Marc is, in my opinion, the most desirable guy I've put in any of my games. I actually reduced the interactivity in the game so that you guys couldn't screw up how awesome he is. (-: He's not an action star, but, frankly, that's not what women ... well, at least me, want in a man. He's so supportive, and understanding, and sensitive... That kind of stuff matters (to me, at least). Jess was going to drink herself to death, and in the course of the game, Marc basically saves her life. As she said, he's her hero. He'd be mine too.

Now, I see some confusion on how the game works, and I understand where it comes from. Frequently in my games, if there are 3 things you can say, then one is worth a point, one is neutral (0 points) and one is negative. You quickly figure out how to "behave," and that's how you have to act. So, yeah, you've played my games before, and you see the self deprecating dialog option, and you assume that's what you have to do.

That's not actually how it works in this game, though. I wanted you to be free to play the character you wanted to (while constraining you to being awesome...). I'm pretty sure you don't ever need to be self deprecating in the game if you don't want to be. I do reward you for being well rounded, but there are enough options that you should be able to do that while avoiding particular personality traits that you don't associate with. Okay, if you want to be kind of a "semi-jerk," it won't work, but there's only so much time to write dialog options.

As for how many concerts Marc has gone to, everyone has a hobby. Some people read books. Some play video games. Some rock climb. Some go to local concerts. Going to concerts is Marc's hobby. And, especially when there's a thriving local rock scene, there are a lot of people who never miss a show their favorite bands put on. I mean, consider the people who followed The Grateful Dead around on tour going to all of their concerts. Marc didn't even need to leave his city to see Mayhem. And, though he's highly attracted to Jess, I tried to make it clear that he enjoys the entire band and their music. Something I can take from this, though, is that I could have done more to show that he also likes other music and goes to other concerts. As I think about how I worded things with Power Girl, I can definitely see why people might interpret things differently than I intended. I'll learn from that.

Question for you folks. Would you consider the POV characters in these games to be stronger if I worked at showing their other interests? (Interests besides the pretty woman.) Is the concern that Marc is weak, or is it really that my characterization of him is? I could certainly put more effort into giving the POVs a more involved backstory. Would people like that more or less? On one hand, knowing more about the character could be interesting, but on the other, it would likely pull you farther away from him. The more you know about him, the less he's like you. I seriously don't know the answer to these questions and would love to hear opinions on them.

Tlaero

I think Redemption for Jessika was another fantastic work from you and Mortze. Thanks!

Regarding Marc- I don't think that you made him out to be weak- his characterization was very realistic. I think a bit more back story about him in the beginning may have helped, or perhaps specifically even just removing something like the comment he made about himself being a middle age man that couldn't fathom someone like Jessika being into him. That particular point was the only real "off" thing I saw in his character- he certainly didn't look like a middle age man, and there was nothing about him to imply that he was lame, just overly self deprecating for a comment like that.

Overall I really enjoyed it! I look forward to seeing where the overarching story goes

[ihutch]

There's nothing wrong with people's opinions on whether or not Marc is weak.

....
USUALLY when a girl likes a band or a singer, it is like she falls in love with the singer or a member of the band. She would die to have sex with her idol. That's NOT how it works for men. USUALLY when a man likes a band or a singer, he likes their music. He's not in love with any of them. He may even feel them a real turn off.....

.....

You what ???

Sorry difference of opinion here. As a 30+ year old guy ..... I have had the hots for " kylie minogue " she is my equivalent of jessica although sadly I have not be as dedicated as marc has been.

My fondness for kylie stretched back to when she started on TV soap Neighbours as the character "charlene" ......

so ...

and dont get me started on "rihanna" although my opinion there has changed a bit since the "umbrella" song.

[LRM]

ROFLOL!!

I'll admit I'm a picky old turd... That said this is really high on my pisses me off list (admits I too occasionally violate this rule - doesn't make it okay)! They cannot (none of them) be translated. Have some consideration for those that aren't English fluent. Also the few that do not/will not text!
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TIA (tongue in cheek - ThanksInAdvance).
LRM

[Dolphin-BR]

... That's NOT how it works for men. USUALLY when a man likes a band or a singer, he likes their music. He's not in love with any of them. He may even feel them a real turn off.

ROFLOL!!

While this may be true for some men (and you may be one of them) I think you may be generalizing your own opinions onto the common man, that or I must know a large number of Unusual males and The Music Industry has seriously stuffed up their research for the male related demographics.
Think of the time/effort/money wasted producing all those posters bought by male consumers to 'look' at, the time/effort/money spent clothing/lighting/choreographing the band members (both on stage and in videos) to appeal to the male consumer, it all has been a total waste.

note: The above assumes that the bands in question contains members of the gender that the male in question is interested in sexually.

There's nothing wrong with people's opinions on whether or not Marc is weak.

....
USUALLY when a girl likes a band or a singer, it is like she falls in love with the singer or a member of the band. She would die to have sex with her idol. That's NOT how it works for men. USUALLY when a man likes a band or a singer, he likes their music. He's not in love with any of them. He may even feel them a real turn off.....

.....

You what ???

Sorry difference of opinion here. As a 30+ year old guy ..... I have had the hots for " kylie minogue " she is my equivalent of jessica although sadly I have not be as dedicated as marc has been.

My fondness for kylie stretched back to when she started on TV soap Neighbours as the character "charlene" ......

so ...

and dont get me started on "rihanna" although my opinion there has changed a bit since the "umbrella" song.

I guess I didn't make the point clear enough. I didn't say a man cannot consider a female singer as a sexual partner. What a meant was: USUALLY a man doesn't consider a female singer as a sexual partner BECAUSE she is a singer or member of a band he enjoys.
Admiration and sexual interest don't go hand in hand in the mind of a man as they do in a female's mind.

If a female singer or band member is hot enough, a man will be sexually interested in her as he would be if she wasn't a singer or a band member.
To be a singer or band member plays no part in her sexual appeal to most men.

[Mori]

I liked the way you wrote Marc he felt like a normal person, made the story feel more real to me.

On the question of showing more of the PCs interests I think it would be good. Also sharing them with the girl could possibly lead to some interesting interaction between the 2. To me it felt like sometimes the girl doesn't show a whole lot of interest about who the PC really is, if you know what I mean.

[zam_ora]

Great Game!

I think what is trying to be said is guys like the music of a female artist because he thinks she is hot!
Girls think a male artist is hot because she likes his music!

A massive generalisation i know but i have some pretty shocking albums in my collection for this reason!

[Greyelf]

ROFLOL!!
... snip ...

I apologies for using an abbreviation/slang/emote that some others may not know of or understand, and I also rarely do texting or instant messaging.

I should of wrote *Rolling on the floor laughing out loud*

(Although I am now slightly confused by the inclusion / availability of the smiley abbreviations/emotes that appear to the right of the Post A Reply text box! *smile*)

[fauxplayer]

First of all, tremendous game. Was motivated to write a lengthy post after playing, but realized the praise was pretty well covered here, so I'll just say that the significant discussion of Marc and his "merits" are a testament to how amazing this game is. I mean, how many games have we played where we cared enough to debate the intricacies of the characters to this degree? You've created such a wonderful game here that people actually care when the limited options aren't pitch-perfect compared to the idealization we've created while playing. Whenever options become even mildly disappointing, it usually means the majority were sufficiently engaging for players to become entrenched in the plot and characterization. Bravo.

[LRM]

ROFLOL!!
... snip ...

I apologies for using an abbreviation/slang/emote that some others may not know of or understand, and I also rarely do texting or instant messaging.

I should of wrote *Rolling on the floor laughing out loud*

(Although I am now slightly confused by the inclusion / availability of the smiley abbreviations/emotes that appear to the right of the Post A Reply text box! *smile*)

It's not just you.
There have been far too many of late.
Just a little prod to stem the trend.

[The Maltese Budgie]

I liked Marc, and my reasoning is that when I'm playing a video game, I find it terribly hard to be a dick in it; case in point, Knights of the Old Republic, loved it as a good guy/girl, hated it as a baddie (if any of you folks like Sith then be my guest, have my Darkside Membership if you like ;-) ). Same goes for Planescape: Torment, only ever as a good guy, never as a villain. For me Marc falls into the same bracket as Good Revan or the Good Nameless One. He's not weak by any stretch, just a man with his priorities sorted inside his head.

I think his contribution to the story is key for helping Jess find a way out of the funk she was in, and his compassion is no less a strength or desirable quality than if he cut loose a bit of the old Aiki-Jutsu upon the villains of the piece (I'd say his way was arguably better). You could say he was a fulcrum that the story pivoted on. There it is, said my tuppence worth

[tlaero]

Okay, one thing I'm hearing is that people would like for my male characters to be more interesting. That's completely fair, and I'll take it to heart. It's true that, especially in secondary characters, I give the females more thought than the males. That's a clear place I can do better, and I'll work on it.

Changes for how I should do POV characters in future games are less clear, though. I'm torn between the feedback that if I give you more info on them they'll seem less like you (a negative) and the conflicting feedback that they should be more fleshed out. I really like the suggestion to be more like Mass Effect though. How can I go wrong being more like the Best. RPG. Evar? (Spoiler alert, we're going to discover that Chloe's boss is really a giant sentient robot thing from dark space...)

One thing Mass Effect did was have you choose between some options about your background before the game started. You picked which you wanted to be and it had an albeit small impact on the game. I'll weigh the options there. I'd hate for a person to feel they had to play the game through 3 times just to see some subtle changes in dialog/story. But let me think about it.

One place where I respectfully disagree, though, is the suggestion that Marc never challenges Jess. In my mind he challenges her to get out of the bar. He challenges her to fix her friendship with Sarah. He challenges her to get back into the studio. And he challenges her to come to grips with her power. The fact that he does this in a non-confrontational way, in my opinion, shows skill, not weakness. One thing I really appreciate, both in characters and real people, is skill.

As for what Jess sees in him. It's not that he's "nice" (Blah). Yeah, she was impressed with the tally she made about him on Monday morning when she found him on the couch. And, yeah, his immunity got his foot in the door, so to speak. (An aside on that, a very common problem for famous people is that they don't know who is "real" and who is after them for their fame. When Jess discovered her power, she became acutely aware of that problem.) But the relationship is just starting. We're talking about a week of time here. She's got her man-hating best friend saying good things about him. He's sweet, funny, supportive, and a little sexual. She finds him attractive. He's not self-centered like the last guy. He puts her above himself. And he's a possible way out of the destructive cycle she's ashamed to be in. Why wouldn't she go on a few dates with him? If I were a single rock star, I certainly would... (-:

Tlaero

[boyo111]

I think his contribution to the story is key for helping Jess find a way out of the funk she was in

This is why I found Marc to be perfectly suited for the way he is. Very knowledgeable about local bands, their histories, and interactions. Jess is a typical rocker chick, but also she has had to play many gigs where things went wrong, and she rose above it. She was in a funk,if Marc was a true jerk then she wouldn't be bothering with him, as I see it.

One place where I respectfully disagree, though, is the suggestion that Marc never challenges Jess. In my mind he challenges her to get out of the bar. He challenges her to fix her friendship with Sarah. He challenges her to get back into the studio. And he challenges her to come to grips with her power. The fact that he does this in a non-confrontational way, in my opinion, shows skill, not weakness. One thing I really appreciate, both in characters and real people, is skill.

As for what Jess sees in him. It's not that he's "nice" (Blah). Yeah, she was impressed with the tally she made about him on Monday morning when she found him on the couch. And, yeah, his immunity got his foot in the door, so to speak. (An aside on that, a very common problem for famous people is that they don't know who is "real" and who is after them for their fame. When Jess discovered her power, she became acutely aware of that problem.) But the relationship is just starting. We're talking about a week of time here. She's got her man-hating best friend saying good things about him. He's sweet, funny, supportive, and a little sexual. She finds him attractive. He's not self-centered like the last guy. He puts her above himself. And he's a possible way out of the destructive cycle she's ashamed to be in. Why wouldn't she go on a few dates with him? If I were a single rock star, I certainly would... (-:

These are examples of why I thought he was strong/just right for the character he is, a self depreciating rock fan. He was more concerned with seeing Jess get back out there and perform rather than anything else, though the way it worked out he wasn't going to say no. As a guy I'd definitely fall into this, it sucks to see people you like in a destructive funk, if you can help great, and if you are single and something comes out of it all the better. Just as with all the commentary here, everyone has different views on this, and that's fine. We all see what we like in a game, and everyone finds something different.

Her power definitely adds a dimension to it, rather than seeing Marc as a phony, telling him his feelings for her aren't real, the immunity and his willingness not to take advantage of her show he is immune to her power and truly wants to help.

[xsandman78]

I quite enjoyed the game. Thought Sera B was a fantastic character, who i'd like to see more of in both senses of the word.

Was slightly confused by Chloe on non lewd path. Expected her to make a move.


I definitely found Marc somewhat problematic as the lead personally, the disparity between the superfan & the rock star herself was very noticeable.
If he was just the guy with a hobby of going to gigs and the super crush, super fan element was less prevalent that might be different.
I can certainly see how his supportiveness helps Jessika come out of her funk & helps Gary etc. Perhaps he could have done with more initiative, she definitely leads and he follows
and even outside of that in regards the case he seems to follow.