Dreaming with Elsa (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

[tlaero]

I'd have to say my favorite part of the graphics is the adorable lip-biting Elsa does.

I completely agree. I've caught myself doing it recently... Mortze nailed that expression.

Tlaero

[tlaero]

Re "Paragon" and previous ME references. The Mass Effect games were my Most. Favoritest. Games. Evar. If you want to cast DwE in even the faintest glimmer of those incredible games ... I'm comfortable with that.

Re difficulty. My actual goal is to make the game enjoyable, not necessarily difficult. So I wouldn't take away save slots or hide scores, etc. We've pretty firmly established that those are good things. And I certainly wouldn't make the choices nonsensical. Feedback has been really consistent on that too. But I understand that there's a level of reward that comes from accomplishing something somewhat difficult. If all people wanted was images of naked people having sex, they'd just watch porn. So the discussion of difficulty techniques is interesting to me.

One of the suggestions here actually happens in the game.

If you don't take the book, you lose the future ability to get a few points.

There were similar places in LwK where you had to do one thing to have the ability to gain points in the future. What do you folks think of that technique? There are two ways to do it.

1) Have the unlock task be worth a point.
2) Have the unlock task not be worth anything (other than that it unlocks the future ability to get points).

If I did 1, you'd know you're doing something important, so you're unlikely to miss it. You'd get to the end of a section, see you don't have max points, and go back. If I did 2 and the future points happened in a later section with a new max, you wouldn't have any way to know where you screwed up. That would be much harder. I'm not sure it would be good, though. Thoughts?

Tlaero

[iksanabot]

Hi Tlaero, hi Mortze, welcome Mortze,

Thanks to both of you for a great game. I love the story, love the visuals, and love the game mechanics.

In particular, Mortze, your animations are great: the realistic head movement during oral sex is a real step up from anything I've seen before.

And Tlaero, my dear, the silhouette idea was so sexy. At first I was slightly disappointed not to get to see all the fun in full colour, but I got over that feeling very quickly to thoroughly enjoy the artistry of those scenes.

I also really like the manual control of the animations. I do suggest that there should be some kind of reward for using the manual control effectively, even if it's just an achievement that gives you an O-face pic for choosing some manual control during every sex scene.

Mortze, I'm so psyched that Tlaero has found such a talented new partner and looking forward to more.
Thanks again, and congratulations to you both.

[tlaero]

That's the other thing I think it's too much time spent in the dreams and, in the end, she only meets in person with the player 2 times that he goes to the store, the restaurant and then the last day when they have the amazing sex (great work again Mortze). This feels a bit rushed and eventually I don't know if she's shy, a perv or how her issues are so quickly resolved nor why she had them

Thank you for your feedback, jardel. If the dreams had been real world, instead of dreams, would the pacing have seemed right? It's important to understand that, to Elsa, a date in her dreams was equivalent to one in reality (better, really, since she felt safer in her dreams). So, to her, it wasn't, "meet 3 times and have sex." There was a substantial ramp.

Tlaero

[tlaero]

Hey iksanabot, I'm glad you liked it. Of course, it has two instances of your favorite thing. (-:

I'm still trying to find the right balance between mouse movement and points. A lot of people didn't like that you needed to do the minigames in CfK, but a lot of other people did like the mouse control. So, this time I gave people the option without "forcing" anyone to use it. I'm interested in people's opinions on how that worked out.

Tlaero

[LRM]

@Mortze; from me, Thank you! You're gifted. I must tell you, it is virtually impossible to please everyone! No matter how spectacular your images/animations, someone will think they could have been better. From my observation, based on this game, if you and Lady T are content with them; they're fine.
@Lady T; give your wrist a rest. I'm really perplexed at how you'll continue Elsa. The ending was unexpected.
@ both of you... Thanks
Lou

[Brigma]

I'm still trying to find the right balance between mouse movement and points. A lot of people didn't like that you needed to do the minigames in CfK, but a lot of other people did like the mouse control. So, this time I gave people the option without "forcing" anyone to use it. I'm interested in people's opinions on how that worked out.

Honestly I'm not sure how anyone could have a gripe with how you handled the mouse minigames in this one. Most animated scenes have the option for manual control but it's never forced upon you except for one scene at the end, and even then there is the option to just click next and skip it.

Tlaero, you did another amazing job writing for this game. I liked how Elsa starts the game off insecure like Keeley and eventually ends up confident like Keisha w/out ever becoming the controlling borderline sociopath that was Christine. I did like how her relationship with Jason forced her to reexamine her life and prepared her rise to the occasion when things got bad, something I'm not sure the Elsa of the beginning of the game would have been able to do.

If I had one comment, it would be nice if there was a good ending with Chloe. Her motives are never truly explained and while her methods were certainly questionable at best she could be a decent person who just got caught up in something.It's possible she had actual altruistic intentions, maybe someone close to her was trapped in a coma suffering eternal nightmares like Elsa threatened to do to her. It would explain why she caved so fast after Elsa threatened her with it.

@Mortze, you're a talented artist. You did an amazing job with this, and not just for a first game. This would be good even if it was your 5th or 6th game. Congrats on a job well done and for hitching your wagon to such a well established and liked member of the community

I do have some questions though. Why did you decide to give Elsa short hair? Was it to contribute to her bookish personality? Why did you give Chole an entire sleeve tattoo? Was it just to enhance the "bad girl" image?

[danigonz]

WOW!

I got away from this forum a few weeks and, when I came back, I gor the best possible news in erotic games world: a new title from Tlaero!!!

Unfortunately, now I'm at work and I have a lot of stuff pending in real life, so I won't be able to play it until next week :-(

BUT I CAN'T WAIT. I haven't seen any single hint of it, but I'm absolutely sure it will rock!

Thanks Tlaero, and welcome, Mortze.

[el drakki]

I thought the eyes were great. Judging by how pics of me tend to turn out, I think grey eyes are just difficult in any medium.

Now that I've had opportunity to explore all the paths (started with 'paragon' of course), though, I'd have to say may favorite part of the graphics is the adorable lip-biting Elsa does.

YEAH

She make me crazy.

[Mortze]

I think grey eyes are just difficult in any medium.

I do agree that Elsa's eyes gave me quite some headaches. She has nice blue/grey eyes, true. But at the same time the cornea has a reflection that works well in certain places and badly in others. I confess I could have worked better her eyes at some points. But I was in a learning curve trough all the game. Don't get mad at Elsa for that!

I do have some questions though. Why did you decide to give Elsa short hair? Was it to contribute to her bookish personality? Why did you give Chole an entire sleeve tattoo? Was it just to enhance the "bad girl" image?

Well. When Tlaero asked me to send her a pic of a girl I opened DAZ, worked on a great body and facial features and gave a thought about the hair. I like short hair. When cut in a very feminine style it looks awesome on women. Besides, short hair is easier and faster to render. Also, we do not see much short hair girls on this games. Considering this, and with the sole purpose to show my style to Tlaero, I sent that picture. Tlaero liked the girl very much and decided that she would be the main female character of the game. She became Elsa. Tlaero was happy, I was happy with the figure, so the hair stayed.

As for Chloe, Tlearo asked me for a "gothic girl working at the bookstore". I gave it some thought. First, I decided to design a petite redhead, because petite girls are forgot in these games and redhead because I like it. Then I gave a thought about the gothic and again I found that it is a style already done in other games. So I prefered to go towards a more metal/glam style. I had to add tattoos and I tried several of them. The smaller ones seemed to me very cliché, like butterflies, flowers, hearts, etc, and it didn't fit the character. Also, the tattoo had to be in a place not covered by clothing because it had to yell "Irreverence". There was this one on the full arm and the other one on the back, both big. I just felt I got it. Rendered it, sent to Tlaero and she liked it. Chloe was born. When you think about it,the fact that you ask about her tattoos would be precisely the reaction that Chloe would want.

[jardel77]

Thank you for your feedback, jardel. If the dreams had been real world, instead of dreams, would the pacing have seemed right? It's important to understand that, to Elsa, a date in her dreams was equivalent to one in reality (better, really, since she felt safer in her dreams). So, to her, it wasn't, "meet 3 times and have sex." There was a substantial ramp.

Tlaero

Hi Tlaero,

Thanks a lot for your reply.

I understand that it makes her feel better and more confident as well but it was weird that after the first time they kiss when they speak again over the phone she asks him if he wants to be her boyfriend. It felt rushed and not according to her personality until that point.
If they were proper dates probably yes but not ask him if he wants to be her boyfriend after the first time they kissed... They could keep the flirt going on and eventually later that would arise. At least, in my opinion, of course. You may think it differently and according to your games you know this a lot better than me so I'm sure I'll keep loving all your games. But for me the fun and excitment is the flirtation and seduction part and if that's rushed it's not as good to play for me. And that's what I liked about Christine and also about Keeley and even Keisha. Because, specially Christine, they could be flirt, seductive but they could also keep the distances and make "us" work harder to get to that stage while in this game, again, for me, it felt a bit easier.

Playing again, I have to say the sex over the phone scene was amazing really. I also think that, according to her personality, jealousy and teasing in the restaurant scene would pobably fit well.

But I say it again, if you plan to make another game with these characters their dreams together and her condition of not leaving the book store for years could be great opportunities for amazing stories.

Again, please don't get me wrong and it's just my opinion and if for some reason it can help even better but of course that what I want is to play more of your games and I'm always expecting the next

[Sartain]

One of the suggestions here actually happens in the game.

If you don't take the book, you lose the future ability to get a few points.

There were similar places in LwK where you had to do one thing to have the ability to gain points in the future. What do you folks think of that technique? There are two ways to do it.

1) Have the unlock task be worth a point.
2) Have the unlock task not be worth anything (other than that it unlocks the future ability to get points).

If I did 1, you'd know you're doing something important, so you're unlikely to miss it. You'd get to the end of a section, see you don't have max points, and go back. If I did 2 and the future points happened in a later section with a new max, you wouldn't have any way to know where you screwed up. That would be much harder. I'm not sure it would be good, though. Thoughts?

Tlaero

I think stuff like that works just fine (the first way) , because it encourages the player to "explore" a bit and not just click through the scenes, but it's hardly particularly difficult. It would be even better if missing certain actions, or having to choose one or the other, offered different branches to the game. So in one playthrough you might not say, find a blindfold in your romantic interests belongings because you didn't want to look through her stuff, but on the other hand if you did find it, it would open up the possibility of a scene or story branch that involved some light bondage stuff.

I liked the game, but I feel the graphics of the men could have used more attention. Even though I'm a guy, I was distracted every time there was a picture of a man. It pulled me out of the game. I kept thinking, why was there a teenage boy in this sex game? Is that a pompadour? Why doesn't he shave or grow out his beard? Why is he so short? Maybe a woman would feel different about the looks of the men though.

I have to agree on this. The male avatars were serviceable, since for my part I mostly ignored them, but honestly they tended to look like retarded high-school boys. Which I suppose might have been the look the artist was aiming for, but there was certainly a certain suspension of disbelief required to buy the premise that these attractive, capable women would get involved with the the comic relief sidekicks of a frat-boy movie

[Mortze]

LostTrout wrote:
I liked the game, but I feel the graphics of the men could have used more attention. Even though I'm a guy, I was distracted every time there was a picture of a man. It pulled me out of the game. I kept thinking, why was there a teenage boy in this sex game? Is that a pompadour? Why doesn't he shave or grow out his beard? Why is he so short? Maybe a woman would feel different about the looks of the men though.


I have to agree on this. The male avatars were serviceable, since for my part I mostly ignored them, but honestly they tended to look like retarded high-school boys. Which I suppose might have been the look the artist was aiming for, but there was certainly a certain suspension of disbelief required to buy the premise that these attractive, capable women would get involved with the the comic relief sidekicks of a frat-boy movie

Incidently, that was the aim yes. Both Conner and Jason are just out of college, and if Jason is a bit more mature, Conner has always been a frat boy. When designing both of them I questioned myself "what do 2 young men, just out of college, with a crappy job look like?" and I looked around and (besides Conner whose profile is to be a frat boy) most of the young men I see have a similar look like Jason. I know I did his age (save for the hair but that was not a personal choice unfortunately ). They are supposed to be about 23 years old. Which by today's standards is an age closer to teen than Man (in average, there are exceptions of course).

[iksanabot]

Hey iksanabot, I'm glad you liked it. Of course, it has two instances of your favorite thing. (-:

I'm still trying to find the right balance between mouse movement and points. A lot of people didn't like that you needed to do the minigames in CfK, but a lot of other people did like the mouse control. So, this time I gave people the option without "forcing" anyone to use it. I'm interested in people's opinions on how that worked out.

Tlaero

I think your solution works. When I described the game mechanics that I wanted to use for sex scenes in LwT and more recent games, what I wanted was to make sex scenes places to earn more affection from girls by performing well. I still think that's a good way to boost points because it makes players "invested" in the sex scene instead of just observers. But I understand that some people don't like it, and it's hard to make it work on smaller devices. I think a good medium would be to allow people to automate it without losing too many points: say 95% of points available if you automate, making it technically possible to see every scene in the game without ever "participating" in the sex scene, but if you master the sex mechanics you can get 100% of points and don't have to play the rest of the game absolutely perfectly in order to see every scene.

Even so, we aren't doing that in LOP games because the exact mechanic I have in mind is just too much of a headache to program, as I understand it...

[redle]

I'll admit that I was one of those who commented on maybe increasing the difficulty or adding more branching. In truth, its the desire for more that drives a good part of that request. Increasing difficulty in this type of game without going into the zone of, try every possible combination until it works or cheat, is certainly the much harder option to get right. But, overshadowing everything else, the reason why a ton of people comment on it being so easy is because we're told to think that way.

The very first choice the player makes is to decide if they want to play this game on easy, medium, or hard. So, for those who choose hard (and let's face it, by saying lower difficulty equals less sexy... well everyone wants to play only hard), they are conditioned right from the start to expect it to actually be "hard." Then it's rather straightforward and it doesn't match their expectations. This isn't to say players would have actually enjoyed it more if it were more difficult. It just didn't meet the expectations that were implanted in their minds and so they feel like it was not quite right.

Really though, this game is much more a linear visual novel than anything else. There are 3 slightly different versions of the story, but the branching is determined by about the first 5 game clicks. It could have just as easily been given as a Milly style read with "next" buttons. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I enjoy reading and good stories.

The point here is that I think that the easy/medium/hard used to start the game could be dropped or put to better effect. Changing the difficulty right now doesn't change the direct gameplay at all. It is always exactly just as hard to earn any single point. It is always just as hard to get the gist of what our goal is. The only change is at the end of every chapter whether or not we're somewhat arbitrarily given a game over (oh, and also, the sexy you're looking for... whether or not most of it is going to hidden from the player anyway).

I think, if you are going to keep the difficulty setting in future games, you might be better served leaving all scenes in every difficulty. Change how you interpret difficulty to actually affect every single mouse click though, instead of end success/failure. So, for instance:
Easy starts off with a path choice of black/grey/white. The game then reads like a story with next buttons for the rest of the game.
Medium plays out as the current version of hard.
Hard has all the scores hidden, or just the max, or shows the score and max only at checkpoints (so the player isn't blind playing the whole game. He can replay a single chapter over and over to find the best solution rather than needing to do the whole game to find an elusive point).
Impossible has no outside of game feedback at all (meaning scores and such). Not claiming you need to add a 4th difficulty. Just supplying some options.

As for objects or tasks that have no immediate reward, but can have a future reward, these should be limited to side quests. Basically, the game should still be fully completable and winnable without the object. If picking up an uninteresting object eventually may yield, basically, an easter egg, then that's reasonable.

(That isn't to say you couldn't possibly make use of such objects in combination with the difficulty setting. A variation on how to use difficulty could be chapter 1 has max points of 10. On easy all 10 points are visible. On medium, 1 required object becomes a "masked" object. Max points for the chapter remains at 10, but the points are broken into visible and hidden points categories. So the player must get 9/9 visible and 1/1 hidden to continue. The player only ever sees the 9/9, or is shown the 1/1 only upon chapter end. Obviously the player would need to be told about the existence of the hidden point system.)