Finding Miranda (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

[Tao Dude]

... Sorry my 2 cents

Don't be. I pretty much stopped paying attention when I saw that "men are simple-minded" nonsense.

I agree wholeheartedly. part of the challenge of a game for me is to get inside the creator's head, which is why I no longer play the 'M&F' type games, and I also get a bit frustrated with the 'illusion of choice' pages in some of the Virtual Date Games, which are a thin disguise for linear story sections. To my mind, it should either be a branch or a click-through.

Tlaero and Mortze games are exceptionally well-crafted, and my only real criticism is the disappointment that each one has to reach a conclusion. I don't mean that they should be platform games with endless levels: they are like a good book: you don't want to put it down, but that means that you finish it more quickly and have to wait longer for the next one.

[tlaero]

Kroq-Gar, thank you for your feedback. I'm sorry, but I have to ask, is English your first language?

I know a lot of very smart, very complex men. I fundamentally disagree with the suggestion that FM was too difficult for males. However, when I made the game with subtle differences between expressions, I didn't consider people (whether male or female) who were playing in their non-native language. I suspect the game would be extremely difficult in that case. I'll have to think about that for future games.

As for getting through it without seeing any sex scenes, that was an experiment. I can either make virtual novels or games, and I've chosen to make games. If it's a game, there has to be a consequence for playing badly. In most games (including my previous ones) the consequence is that the game stops and says, "You failed." In this game, Miranda is already heavily attracted to Lucas, so he'd have to be a complete tool to screw up with her. It didn't make sense to have the typical, "You said a few things wrong, so she broke up with you" endings. So I experimented with the idea of having the story continue as it really would have, but the consequence being that you don't get to see the sex scene. I've heard loud and clear that people didn't like that choice. They'd prefer the game stop at the sex scene rather than continue on and miss it. That's fair. The only way to really figure out what works and what doesn't is to try things.

Tlaero

[Kroq-Gar]

yep my first language is not english but i still think what i said here there are 3 people who want to play a game and to disccover ,they ar emore interested in the game part ok but most of men are simple minded especially the sex men type that like this kind of game. 3 men that answerred are onyl exceptions ,most part of the real men playing those games is not even caring about saying something in a forum that's the point I think finding Miranda is less interesting than other games ,the point is not that you have good or bad choice the point is that you have to choose a route and follow a route and that's really difficult as I said i don't know what i should choose to say or to do to play it "regretfu introverted" or "regretful extroverted" and so on, this thing is really terrible.I can play a game using my personality not the personality someone else should have... and more then that with choices that have really a small difference .it's like the all girlish thing of "ho you said it after 1 second so you don't mean it really... ". and you would only to say "Are you serious girl????" "really are you serious? because if you are I can leave just now..." as i said men are more easy going then female and this game is not easy going but give too much importance to futile things...(like all girls do)

For the 3 bald men saying lot of stupidities in their I'm not simpleminded i agree and blabla garbage speech.We're not talking about an adventure but just about a multiple dialogue choice game if i'm playing an adventure i want more interaction and i want to discover ,this is just a sex game with a good story keep it easy...if you do an adventure-sex game (that means getting and using objects like in monkey island we can talk about making it more complex ,this game like it is is frustrating....)I loved getting to know Christine and Redemption for Jessica,i liked Keely especially the daydreaming part ,i also liked elsa but i don't like this one....I played it an half time then seeing dialogues i 'd prefer to forget about it....

Well you can do a complicated game not for all ,but you'll get less audience ,the drawing of Mortze are all the same amazing and astonishing so you'll probably get all the same some public because people will stick with some walkthru just to see drawings....the best sex game except GtkC and RfJ some from lesson of passion gold or sensual haunting somthing ,best sex game made with rpg maker i think is elena's life then lida's adventure and then sarah's life that is a bit more forced,I liked Zoe's temptations but is not so cured in animations...I liked also Shark-mortze games about Amanda and MPS games (but where is he because his first 2 games were very good)...Road trip had a good start but a less good second part(anyway elena's life,sarah's life,road trip and lida's adventure are from 4 different people but really they seems from the same hand even drawing and stories are similar...),maybe i just search a sex story and not a real game ,your story are always been very good but it is not enjoyable this time imho

[Mortze]

Kroq-Gar, thanks for your insight.
Thing is, you may be right, most men who start playing our games aren't in it for the subtleties or the futiles things as you say. In fact, most people who click on our game to play it are looking for something different that our games don't provide.
We're trying to different games than the mainstream games. That means we're making games not for the mainstream public but for those 3 guys who are looking for something more in erotic games. That's our niche if you want.There's Hollywood action movies and there's obscure independent movies that no one sees. We know that aiming higher in terms of storytelling quality we're reaching higher than the main consumers of erotic games. No need to remind us of that.

I can play a game using my personality not the personality someone else should have

We don't know what personality you have. That's why it's impossible to make games aiming at each player's personality and tastes. I wished everyone understood that simple thing.
Since it is impossible, we make games that match our personality instead. That's why you can read a female voice in the stories, and read some subtleties that some men call futilities.

[Kroq-Gar]

I can play a game using my personality not the personality someone else should have

We don't know what personality you have. That's why it's impossible to make games aiming at each player's personality and tastes. I wished everyone understood that simple thing.
Since it is impossible, we make games that match our personality instead. That's why you can read a female voice in the stories, and read some subtleties that some men call futilities.

I don't think personality of people who play should be important at all doing this kind of games,that's the point finding miranda is to o based on the personality of the character so you have to follow a personality route....i think this is the mistake basing the game of personality choices.
Choices should be good or wrong and not based on a personality
There shouldn't be a phrase good if you have choose to be Introverted and another good if you have chosen to be extroverted.... there shoud be only oen good and one bad choice imho or 2 good or one half good and 1 bad or 2 bad and one good...but not a good or bad based on character personality

[Mortze]

I don't think personality of people who play should be important at all doing this kind of games,that's the point finding miranda is to o based on the personality of the character so you have to follow a personality route....i think this is the mistake basing the game of personality choices choices should be good or wrong and not based on a personality

Exactly. Our games don't invest in the player's personality, but rather on the character's of the story. And since we put a high focus on storytelling we need characters with defined personalities instead of hollow characters.

[Kroq-Gar]

As i explained editing the message up imho it is a mistake all the same good or bad choices should not take into account neither personal nor character personalities.

[Kroq-Gar]

good choice should be universally good and bad choices should be universally bad

[Kroq-Gar]

Answer me one question why for you i liked a lot Getting to know Christine and Redemption for Jessica and i don't like this one?

this game is confusing with these multiple personalities choices that's why I said keep it simple like in GtkC or RfJ because if your road is to do your gmes more and more complex like giving 4 different personalities to the character this is not the right road imho....

[tlaero]

Kroq-Gar, it's okay that you didn't like Finding Miranda. Different people like different things.

But some of the things you've said are not okay. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're not trying to be offensive. I'm going to assume that you're saying perfectly reasonable things in your primary language, and the translation to English is making them sound ... otherwise.

I will say, however, that if you're actively trying to be offensive, you should stop. There's no need for that. And if you're not trying to be offensive, then the degree to which you're coming across badly suggests that the language barrier hit you harder in Finding Miranda than the gender barrier did.

Tlaero

[JFR]

... For the 3 bald men saying lot of stupidities in their I'm not simpleminded i agree and blabla garbage speech. ...

I'll have you know that even at my age I have a full head of hair. It is white but still all there.

[Mortze]

I'll have you know that even at my age I have a full head of hair. It is white but still all there.

You may be bald elsewhere...

[Crane]

Sorry if i`m giving an opinion on an opinion, i generally don`t do that.

I`m not offended by "simpleminded" thing. Perhaps men are simpleminded about some kind of things and perhaps women are simpleminded about some kind of things. To put it in one word people are simpleminded about things they don`t care too much.

But what does all this have anything to do with "right choices" in Lucas` case? If you choose him to be "extrovert" you`ll have "aggressive" answers and if you choose him to be "introvert" you`ll have "modest" answers. There are only a few choices regarding player`s choice about Lucas being comfort/discomfort but they only emphasize a little more Lucas` "extrovert/introvert" reaction. This has nothing to do with his "personality" has only to do with his (your) choice how to react after him losing his wife by death or by her being a bitch. This reaction does not confine or define his personality.
And the "right" answers are truly to his reacton to his lost. The differences between answers are logic, not related to his personality.

[moskys]

Since English is not Kroq-Gar first language (it isn't mine, either), I want to apologize for my previous rant. He has explained himself quite well in later posts.

... But what does all this have anything to do with "right choices" in Lucas` case? If you choose him to be "extrovert" you`ll have "aggressive" answers and if you choose him to be "introvert" you`ll have "modest" answers. There are only a few choices regarding player`s choice about Lucas being comfort/discomfort but they only emphasize a little more Lucas` "extrovert/introvert" reaction. This has nothing to do with his "personality" has only to do with his (your) choice how to react after him losing his wife by death or by her being a bitch. This reaction does not confine or define his personality.
And the "right" answers are truly to his reacton to his lost. The differences between answers are logic, not related to his personality.

If I understood Kroq-Gar correctly, the problem with FM is just that: the correct answers ARE related to Lucas personality and the player has to stick to it for the whole game. It's more or less the same as in Dreaming with Elsa, but then the options were clearly 'romantic' or clearly 'sexual' so it was easier to keep on track. As you have explained above In FM you have a little more complex combination. OK, it's not about being simple-minded but about being willing to pay atention during long conversations.

But in Redemption for Jessica you just have to NOT choose the same type of response: you had to be funny, then supportive, then serious, then funny again... That's probably a more realistic approach, because all of us have 'complex' personalities and sometimes we use a kind word and sometimes a funny one, it's a balance. Maybe that's why Kroq-Gar liked it so much. In fact, I found RfJ easier than any other game made by Tlaero because in my first playthrough I was clicking almost randomly without paying too much atention to what I was saying (that's the way I usually play a game for the first time) and got the perfect ending.

And in Getting to know Christine, as in previous Tlaero & Phreaky's games, it was a matter of understanding the girl's personality and choose the right answer for that kind of girl. That was criticized by lots of people because it made the men look a bit weak and influenciable. So Tlaero decided to define a personality for the playing character, which lead us to this discussion

[JFR]

Stepping out of my clown car for moment -

Part of the rancor here seems to have resulted from the English as first- or second-language issue. For many English speakers, the phrase "simple minded" does not necessarily mean "uncomplicated" or "straight forward," which is what I now think was meant in the original comment. "Simple" or "simple minded" is often a euphemism among native speakers for the less polite term "stupid." My reaction, and I think that of others, was to that connotation. I am not stupid. Nor are any of the more thoughtful commenters on this and other discussion boards. I don't even think I agree that all men are not complex thinkers, as suggested, but I definitely take umbrage at any suggestion that we are all stupid and only looking for the quickest way to the sex scenes.

As said, I think this is more a language and culture difference than anything else. I still like FM very much and think it is as enjoyable for men as for women. I do, however, respect the reactions of those who don't agree. There are many choices out there for players of adult-oriented games. I rather dislike the types of games that require little thought and include only very basic story-lines. That doesn't mean those designers should stop making them. It only means that I will choose other games. I trust those who don't like the more thoughtful stories that designers like Tora Productions put out will simply find something else to play that is more to their liking. To each his own.