Dreaming with Elsa (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Mortze » Tue, 16Aug23 23:37

jk103 wrote:Uh, he wakes up naked, and tied to a bed. Unless he gave consent to that before being knocked out, that's sexual assault, legally and morally. And at best he's still on the fence when she starts groping him, and even then, I'm not sure that he ever really gives explicit consent, and even then, consent can't be given under implied threat or coercion.

Kidnaping, I agree. I don't think that removing someone's clothes while he is unconscious is rape.
Then, if you read the pages well, you will see that Mark strongly desires Chloe. And she didn't forced him. He was tied but she didn't forced an erection out of him. She didn't forced him to apply himself to please her. I think you're thinking beyond what the game showed.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby jk103 » Wed, 16Aug24 00:55

Mortze wrote:
jk103 wrote:Uh, he wakes up naked, and tied to a bed. Unless he gave consent to that before being knocked out, that's sexual assault, legally and morally. And at best he's still on the fence when she starts groping him, and even then, I'm not sure that he ever really gives explicit consent, and even then, consent can't be given under implied threat or coercion.

Kidnaping, I agree. I don't think that removing someone's clothes while he is unconscious is rape.
Then, if you read the pages well, you will see that Mark strongly desires Chloe. And she didn't forced him. He was tied but she didn't forced an erection out of him. She didn't forced him to apply himself to please her. I think you're thinking beyond what the game showed.

"He thinks she's hot, therefore it isn't rape" is a really dangerous attitude towards rape. Whether he found her attractive or got an erection isn't relevant, all that matters is whether or not he consented to this particular sexual encounter. He does not, and in fact it's impossible for someone to give consent when they've been drugged, kidnapped, stripped, and tied to a bed against their will. The implied threat is obvious, and coerced consent isn't consent at all.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Mortze » Wed, 16Aug24 12:22

jk103 wrote:"He thinks she's hot, therefore it isn't rape" is a really dangerous attitude towards rape. Whether he found her attractive or got an erection isn't relevant, all that matters is whether or not he consented to this particular sexual encounter. He does not, and in fact it's impossible for someone to give consent when they've been drugged, kidnapped, stripped, and tied to a bed against their will. The implied threat is obvious, and coerced consent isn't consent at all.

You are very right in that statement. But it's your speculation, or intepretation of what Marc felt.
We, as creators, do know what transpired in his mind. And I assure you that it doesn't qualify as rape. Marc would have have sex with Chloe anywhere, anytime.
But there isn't much point in discussing legal technicalities in this post (if you want I'll be glad to discuss them in another thread).

The fact is that I won't render anything that implies suffering related to sex, like rape, statutory rape, or pedophilia.
I think that the Chloe scene in RfJ is far from those extremes.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby jk103 » Wed, 16Aug24 16:24

I don't think it works for the game's creators to just insert motivations for their characters after the fact if that don't exist in the game itself. In the game, as presented, Marc doesn't consent to this particular act. That makes it rape. There's really not a lot of gray area here - you can't drug someone, kidnap them, strip them, restrain them, all against their will, and then have consensual sex. Consent has pretty much gone out the window after step 1.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Mortze » Wed, 16Aug24 16:35

jk103 wrote:I don't think it works for the game's creators to just insert motivations for their characters after the fact if that don't exist in the game itself. In the game, as presented, Marc doesn't consent to this particular act. That makes it rape. There's really not a lot of gray area here - you can't drug someone, kidnap them, strip them, restrain them, all against their will, and then have consensual sex. Consent has pretty much gone out the window after step 1.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I won't continue this discussion on this thread at least. Feel free to open one focused on that and I'll gadly discuss it over with you there. We're talking about another game here.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Mahior » Wed, 16Aug24 17:24

Hmmm, I dunno if discussing morality of the acts committed in a sex focused game is wise as such discussions often end up...ugly.

Though do many believe that if genders were reversed and Marc was the kidnapper with Chloe finding him hot and even getting wet then it would still be fine? Few chicks(aside from extremely kinky ones) I think would have much but contempt for a guy that forced himself on them even if they were attracted to him or/and rather perverted themselves. I did not see Marc himself to be build up as particularly kinky tbh.


I'd say it would be nice if the Marc had some self respect for being treated like a mere object and had nothing but contempt for the chick(and not want anything to do with her afterwards) or if there was an option to go that way. A scene where Marc meets Chloe again he gives her just a cold glare and turns away to the chick's surprise would be rather cool I think.

Less for moralizing rather than to have more options where we want the main character to go. Personally I would love if there was an adult game with sex where we could be nice to a girl but decide that we want to be just friends with her by the end even if the chick falls in love and wants sex badly. A friendship route so to speak. With potentially a perverted route where the protagonist wants to undergo all kinks available and maybe a third strictly romantic route with not so kinky sex. Hmmm...

Also is it better when we have a protagonist with fixed desires and moral compass or when we can shape those with our decisions? Guess both have their perks and cons though if we can influence the outcome of the game it would be cool imo if we could influence the kind of person the main character becomes and with whom(if anyone) he falls in love with.

That "complaining" aside the game is pretty good. Congrats Mortze and tlaero!!
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby jk103 » Wed, 16Aug24 18:12

Mortze wrote:
jk103 wrote:I don't think it works for the game's creators to just insert motivations for their characters after the fact if that don't exist in the game itself. In the game, as presented, Marc doesn't consent to this particular act. That makes it rape. There's really not a lot of gray area here - you can't drug someone, kidnap them, strip them, restrain them, all against their will, and then have consensual sex. Consent has pretty much gone out the window after step 1.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I won't continue this discussion on this thread at least. Feel free to open one focused on that and I'll gadly discuss it over with you there. We're talking about another game here.

Looking over the forums list I don't think any of them seem appropriate for this topic. Unless you'd prefer the RfJ thread? Feel free to respond to my previous post there if you'd like, or we can just end the discussion here.
Mahior wrote:Hmmm, I dunno if discussing morality of the acts committed in a sex focused game is wise as such discussions often end up...ugly.

I've been trying to avoid discussing the morality of the scenario because that opens up a whole other can of worms. I do think it's kind of important for people to at least be aware of what it is they're looking at.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby tlaero » Wed, 16Aug24 18:54

Mortze did the images for that scene and suggested the final bit where she injects him with something, but I wrote the scene itself. This is, truthfully, what I had intended ahead of time (not reverse moralizing as has been suggested).

First of all, this only happens on the "Marc is a sexual jerk" path. He had to objectify Sarah and Sylvia. He had to let Jessika try to blow him and have sex with him when she was drunk. He had to be overtly sexual to Chloe when she was an intern interviewing him. He most likely had revenge sex with Gary's wife in front of him (and, even if the player missed the options to do that, the Marc on this path would have consented to it). It is my belief that the Marc from that path would have been excited to wake up in a room with a naked Chloe. Furthermore, we're not making a "life simulator" here. We're making porn. Yeah, the main paths in my games are more "relationship" and less "porn" than is typical in this genre, but the alternate paths are basically there for all the people who constantly ask for more "deviant" behaviors in my games. I'm always getting comments like, "Yeah, Life with Keeley is all about a married couple keeping their relationship strong, but why can't we have her cheat on him or do a threesome?" So I add the deviant paths for those fans even though I consider the "good" path to be "what actually happened."

Another clarification. Chloe didn't drug Marc to get him into that room. She was literally terrified that he was too close to the blast and that he'd be hurt, and she was trying to get him away. It is the blast that knocked him out. She saved his life, she didn't kidnap him.

I will admit to what I'm realizing is a sexist view here that a guy waking up to a naked woman is excited, where the reverse wouldn't be true. I would not have thought the scene was okay were the sexes reversed. That's ... interesting. I could very well have had Marc say, "Chloe, I don't want this" and had her untie him and leave. But, truth be told, I had no concept of any player who intentionally got to this point in the game WANTING to say no. Again, this scene is for the player who wants to see some deviance. There's not much point to setting the scene up and then skipping it.

That said, someone pointed out earlier in the thread that I really haven't given people the option to NOT play these "deviant" scenes, because you need them to get the achievements and see the "good" bonus scene. That was something I hadn't considered when I made this game, and I'm thinking that through for future games. I said this before, but if anyone is disturbed by the non-good path and wants to see the bonus, send me a PM and I'll tell them how to skip to it.

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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Vitu » Wed, 16Aug24 19:16

"Can't rape the willing", the old adage goes...
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Mortze » Wed, 16Aug24 19:33

jk103 wrote:Looking over the forums list I don't think any of them seem appropriate for this topic. Unless you'd prefer the RfJ thread? Feel free to respond to my previous post there if you'd like, or we can just end the discussion here.

Well, the RfJ thread is more appropriate since it is a scene from that game. OR you could create a thread called "Is the Chloe sex scene in RfJ considered rape?" and it would be fine too (in the Beach group).
I want to point out that I do not take for granted my opinion on this matter. I'm from a law barckground and I'll trully be glad to discuss with you the scenario presented in RfJ and what criminal acts it portrays. :)

Mahior wrote:That "complaining" aside the game is pretty good. Congrats Mortze and tlaero!!

Thank you!

tlaero wrote:I will admit to what I'm realizing is a sexist view here that a guy waking up to a naked woman is excited, where the reverse wouldn't be true. I would not have thought the scene was okay were the sexes reversed. That's ... interesting. I could very well have had Marc say, "Chloe, I don't want this" and had her untie him and leave. But, truth be told, I had no concept of any player who intentionally got to this point in the game WANTING to say no. Again, this scene is for the player who wants to see some deviance. There's not much point to setting the scene up and then skipping it.

I must confess that if the scene was the other way around, with Chloe being the one tied up, I might have had problems rendering it. I know it shouldn't really make any difference if the victim is a boy or a girl, but I admit it is stronger than me. I guess that knowing that it was pervert Marc there, fulfilling his lew desires, that made me be ok with the scene.
And because I found some comicity in havng MArc wake up naked and tied to a bed. Yes, in RL it is a crime, but in a comic, movie or game it is funny. Funny because the guy eventually desires it. Had he said NO then the scene would have been over real quickly.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Mahior » Wed, 16Aug24 20:31

tlaero wrote:
I will admit to what I'm realizing is a sexist view here that a guy waking up to a naked woman is excited, where the reverse wouldn't be true. I would not have thought the scene was okay were the sexes reversed. That's ... interesting. I could very well have had Marc say, "Chloe, I don't want this" and had her untie him and leave. But, truth be told, I had no concept of any player who intentionally got to this point in the game WANTING to say no. Again, this scene is for the player who wants to see some deviance. There's not much point to setting the scene up and then skipping it.

That said, someone pointed out earlier in the thread that I really haven't given people the option to NOT play these "deviant" scenes, because you need them to get the achievements and see the "good" bonus scene. That was something I hadn't considered when I made this game, and I'm thinking that through for future games. I said this before, but if anyone is disturbed by the non-good path and wants to see the bonus, send me a PM and I'll tell them how to skip to it.

Tlaero


I think having deviant or somewhat kinky routes is certainly an interesting approach as there are certainly at least as many players who want some depravity as those who want a pure love story. Having a choice instead of being forced into a fixed path is definitely a plus.

Still, were Marc married to someone(or had some girlfriend whom he wholeheartedly loves) else would he still agree to some kinky sex with a chick whom he finds attractive? It would sound a bit lame if a guy did not have any principles or was so weak willed that he could betray someone he cares for because the tingling in the pants is too strong. Granted, there are many guys who would likely even force themselves on an attractive girl like Chloe with no questions asked but I believe that there must be some guys out there who would say the magical world "NO" too.

Regarding achievements couldn't one get an achievement like "Being Heroic has benefits" if one helps a girl through the entire game and agrees to have sex with her by the end even if he feels only lust and zero love towards her BUT there is also a "Chivalrous Hero" or "Friend to the end" trophy where a guy does not agree for sex either because he does not love the chick in question/because he would feel insulted if he was rewarded like that for was to him a selfless act or simply because he wants them to stay friends? A different achievement for a different approach and requiring going through the game twice(while perhaps making different choices that would shape the Player character personality in such a way that he would become either a kinky pervert, a romantic hero or a platonic best friend.

Of course the more branches and possibilities there are the longer it takes to make a game so it clearly requires more effort.

Mortze wrote:
jk103 wrote:I must confess that if the scene was the other way around, with Chloe being the one tied up, I might have had problems rendering it. I know it shouldn't really make any difference if the victim is a boy or a girl, but I admit it is stronger than me. I guess that knowing that it was pervert Marc there, fulfilling his lew desires, that made me be ok with the scene.
And because I found some comicity in havng MArc wake up naked and tied to a bed. Yes, in RL it is a crime, but in a comic, movie or game it is funny. Funny because the guy eventually desires it. Had he said NO then the scene would have been over real quickly.


Those double standards are unfortunately something that most of us find hard to see differently even if we force all logic into us. Chicks face the double standard in a negative way too like for example...how many feel contempt for a guy who "scored" many girls? Why so many refer to such guy as a "Sex God" or "What a player" while a girl who had many sexual partners is hardly ever praised and instead called a "slut" or "village bicycle"?

And of course in sex themed games it is even more difficult to discard such views as it is only a game and it does not have to represent reality at its fullest.

Still...if Marc was a 7 year old boy(who has no interest in sex whatsoever) and Chloe was a sex crazed chick who got some lust over little boys I kinda doubt you would stomach such a sex scene either.^^

And well...the trope of a guy making a girl fall in love with him via pleasure even if she was not into him initially is quite a stample of japanese hentai games lol. So I guess this was a reverse case of that...in a way.
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby tlaero » Wed, 16Aug24 22:20

No. This wasn't the reverse case of that at all. To get to this point, Marc had to have no chance with anyone else in the game and have hit on Chloe. He's not cheating on anyone and he's made her know he's into her. Seriously, as the writer of this game I'll say definitively that until she injects him, it's completely consensual.

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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (DwE) (now in Spanish and Italian)

Postby Mahior » Thu, 16Aug25 01:26

tlaero wrote:No. This wasn't the reverse case of that at all. To get to this point, Marc had to have no chance with anyone else in the game and have hit on Chloe. He's not cheating on anyone and he's made her know he's into her. Seriously, as the writer of this game I'll say definitively that until she injects him, it's completely consensual.

Tlaero


I know that Marc had no significant other in this scenario so he wasn't cheating. The scenario I proposed was merely a "What if" situation. I was just a bit worried on his general attitude based on how he reacted. That he would let any girl do whatever she wanted with him under any circumstances as long as he thought her attractive...which would make him extremely weak willed.

If you mean that Marc wouldn't ever agree to such a scenario IF he had a significant other and he agreed to what Chloe did because he loved her and knew she loved him back(making this merely consensual kinks with a mutual agreement on both sides...kinda like roleplaying) then obviously it is fine.


Thanks for answering!
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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (French translation added)

Postby tlaero » Mon, 16Sep12 00:15

Hi folks. Marco wrote a French translation for Dreaming with Elsa, and I've just uploaded it. Same link as on the first page of this thread. Thanks Marco!

Apparently buoyed by DwE: Learning to Fly, this game continues to hold its download position in front of Redemption for Jessika, although Jessika has started to close the gap again. I'm enjoying the little friendly rivalry between the two of them.

In October, patrons will get the next DwE erotic short story. This is one I've been planning since January, and I'm really happy how it turned out. OMG, wait until you see the title page. Mortze so completely nailed it.

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Re: Dreaming with Elsa (French translation added)

Postby tlaero » Wed, 16Sep14 03:55

Marco found a problem with the French translation. He had done it right, but Adventure Creator did the wrong thing in a couple of the pages. I've fixed the pages and have re-uploaded it. If anyone is playing the French version and you suddenly can't advance anymore, it's probably this. Please re-download. If you download after today and still see an issue, please let me know.

If anyone is interested in looking behind the curtain, here's what happened. I write my games in a tool called AC2, and one of its features is that I can call functions from text passages. I use this functionality in games where some pages are minorly different depending on what went before. For instance, in the dream at the start of DwE, you might have been hit by a baseball bat or punched. In some pages I have a function that takes two pieces of text and picks the right one to show. For instance, it might be, Bat('hit by a baseball bat', 'punched'). The "Bat" function outputs the first string if you were hit by a bat and outputs the second if you weren't. Fine and dandy until you translate it into French where there are a bunch of words that have an apostrophe in them (ie "j'ai'). If one of those words is in the function, it gets confused. The function things the apostrophes surround the strings and doesn't expect to see any others. This isn't just an issue in French, as it would have broken in English if I'd put a contraction in any of these functions, ie Bat('don't do that', 'it's okay'). But it so happens that I didn't.

I believe I've fixed all the issues in DwE French. I'm thinking about the right way to fix the tool to keep this from happening in the future.

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