Dreaming with Elsa (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

[Natali]

Very nice games. Good job. More news about pandora 2?

[Mortze]

Very nice games. Good job. More news about pandora 2?

Thank you. I posted something about it in Pandora Part 1 thread.

[tlaero]

DwE is now available in Spanish and Italian. Those two languages, as well as the original English one are here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/e3o1n7ru73vmj9l/DwE.zip

This is now in my new "AC2" game format. Aside from the fact that I've removed the sounds, you shouldn't really notice much of a difference. But, if you find any issues, please let me know.

A big thanks to John Milton for the Italian translation and Moskys for the Spanish one!

Tlaero

[mariusz]

The game starts in a romantic way but the plot develops too fast. There are too few interesting talks. Even on the white way the game ends up with violent sex, close to deviation, which is not at all typical of the protagonists. There should be gentle sex such us tantric. The producer of the game thinks that people with quiet nature always have violent sex? He is wrong. The game should be definitely changed with another version issued.

[jvit]

I didn't think it was that violent...

[Dasati]

I may be misremembering but I don't recall any violent sex, do you mean wild? Based on tlaeros other games it seems unlikely there'd be violent sex even on the "mean" path. Also I think your generalising a bit when you say "always", some quiet natured people are into wilder sexual activities once they are comfortable with their partner, some aren't. The game only shows that Elsa is in the former category it doesn't make any sweeping statements that ALL quiet people are one way or the other.

[dryheave]

The game starts in a romantic way but the plot develops too fast. There are too few interesting talks. Even on the white way the game ends up with violent sex, close to deviation, which is not at all typical of the protagonists. There should be gentle sex such us tantric. The producer of the game thinks that people with quiet nature always have violent sex? He is wrong. The game should be definitely changed with another version issued.

This is one of the most bizzare things I've read in a while.

[JFR]

I might understand that comment if it was in reference to RfJ. Some of the Chloe stuff in that one can seem a little disturbing, particularly if you stray down the wrong path to where she shoots you up with a hypo. The only "violent" content I've noticed in DwE is in the dream scenes, where you get punched or even attacked with a bat. There are a few creepy scenes when you take a negative path but I wouldn't characterize DwE as "violent" at all. Maybe the poster doesn't like the tiger scenes.

[muttdoggy]

The game starts in a romantic way but the plot develops too fast. There are too few interesting talks. Even on the white way the game ends up with violent sex, close to deviation, which is not at all typical of the protagonists. There should be gentle sex such us tantric. The producer of the game thinks that people with quiet nature always have violent sex? He is wrong. The game should be definitely changed with another version issued.

There's no specific scene quoted so we aren't really understanding what you mean by "violent sex, close to deviation".
The way sex is regarded and what activities are generally accepted vary widely around the globe. Even my own brother has different views on sexual activity then I do. My previous girlfriends all had different likes and dislikes regarding what they would accept during sexual activities. I accept the fact that we all have differing views on this topic. It's good to discuss it and it's also good to experiment and stretch your comfort zone a little. I've done that and discovered that in some cases, that is the line in the sand. But in some situations, I was willing to go further than I thought I would.
The point is, I congratulate you for playing this game and for giving us your feedback. All I ask is can you tell us the specific scene that made you think it didn't fit the protagonists?
Maybe we can give you the reason why and hopefully clarify this for you.

[Mortze]

From my understanding mariusz is trying to say (maybe english isn't his mothertongue) that the way Elsa behaved sexually is out of character.

For example, she is presented like a shy person who isn't socially experienced but in terms of sex she does things that seem odd (for mariusz) like being proficient at giving head, even allowing a mouthfull, she allows anal fingering, she rides Jason eagerly, she is proactive during sex, etc...

Well, if I got that right then in my, and Tlaero's, defense, I must say that maybe you got Elsa figured wrong. She sure is shy, but I won't say anything new when I say that sometimes the most shy prove to be the most hungered in bed. Sometimes yes, sometimes not. Sometimes the most outgoing or even slutty girls proved to be dull in bed. Fortunatelly, our world isn't a bunch of easy classifications, and we get often surprised.
In Elsa's case she discovered someone with whom she feels confortable to explore her sexuality. Maybe her sexuality is broader than she even knows. And what she needed was someone to give her confort to open herself to her desires.
In a way, she avoids the shy girl who is sexually inexperienced and afraid cliché.

And I personally thought, or tried to do, the first time they have real sex, on the couch, romantic.

If I misunderstood mariusz and he really is talking about violence in sex then I don't know what game he played but it wasn't Dreaming with Elsa. You will never have me render unwanted violence and abuse anywhere.

[tlaero]

Yeah. I suspect that Mariusz meant "energetic" instead of "violent." I'm very, very, timid about allowing the player to be violent to the women in my games. Heck, even in the two games where characters were consensually roleplaying forced sex scenarios, I made the guy stop and ask "you're just kidding, right?" I did that not to make any sort of political statement, but because even the fictional roleplayed forced sex made me uncomfortable.

That said, anyone who has played the "bad" path in RfJ knows that Chloe is in a bad situation. (And you'll learn more about that in Finding Miranda.) So, I'm not above having my characters be mistreated. But I am against rewarding the player for choosing to mistreat females in the games. If that's "boring" or "clichéd" of me, so be it.

As for the first part of Mariusz's message, this is a pretty good example of what I'll call "the creator's dilemma." Here's a critique that says she had sex with him too quickly. There were other posts that said she waited too long (that modern women have sex on the first date, where it took five for Elsa). This post says that there wasn't enough dialog, when others have said that there's too much. This one says he wasn't nice enough, others have said that they didn't want to play games where the nice guy gets the girl. No matter what a creator makes, there will be people who don't like it.

I'm definitely comfortable with the sexual ramp in this game, and I feel that Elsa is internally consistent. I slightly regret having her change based on how you spoke to her, because it kind of made there be two Elsa's in the game. But that was an experiment in giving the player more control of the world around him. You have to keep trying new things or the games start getting stale. (Although, back to the creator's dilemma, some people have said that my games are already stale...)

I don't plan to issue another version. Sorry, Mariusz. I think you're going to have to look elsewhere for games that suit your tastes. Thank you for giving this one a try though.

Tlaero

[Mortze]

That said, anyone who has played the "bad" path in RfJ knows that Chloe is in a bad situation. (And you'll learn more about that in Finding Miranda.) So, I'm not above having my characters be mistreated. But I am against rewarding the player for choosing to mistreat females in the games. If that's "boring" or "clichéd" of me, so be it.

There is a difference, to me, between violence induced sex and violent/dramatic stories.
Where in this case Chloe seems to have a dramatic story, I will never render anything related to rape or conjugal violence. It is where I stand in terms of creator's responsability.

[jk103]

That said, anyone who has played the "bad" path in RfJ knows that Chloe is in a bad situation. (And you'll learn more about that in Finding Miranda.) So, I'm not above having my characters be mistreated. But I am against rewarding the player for choosing to mistreat females in the games. If that's "boring" or "clichéd" of me, so be it.

There is a difference, to me, between violence induced sex and violent/dramatic stories.
Where in this case Chloe seems to have a dramatic story, I will never render anything related to rape or conjugal violence. It is where I stand in terms of creator's responsability.

I'm not sure that I follow. What gives you the impression the Chloe sequence in RfJ isn't rape?

[Mortze]

I'm not sure that I follow. What gives you the impression the Chloe sequence in RfJ isn't rape?

Technically and legally, when

Marc wakes up it's kidnapping. But it is clear that he desires the sex with Chloe so, by agreeing with and desiring it, we can exclude rape. But it is still kidnapping. And the seringe thing is also illegal. But no sex violence in that scene.

[jk103]

Uh, he wakes up naked, and tied to a bed. Unless he gave consent to that before being knocked out, that's sexual assault, legally and morally. And at best he's still on the fence when she starts groping him, and even then, I'm not sure that he ever really gives explicit consent, and even then, consent can't be given under implied threat or coercion.

And of course this is all a fictional fantasy, so it's not necessarily immoral or anything to put it in the game, but it is what it is.