Games with teens - In favor or not?

[moskys]

So, the question is: is it worth it? What is to be gained by making your characters specifically underage, in balance with what really could be lost? Write me something as insightful and inspiring as Lolita and I will say it was worth the risk that some psycho who would not have gone over the edge otherwise, goes over the edge. But don't write it in complete ignorance, refusing to admit to yourself that there can be terrible consequences. Don't be willingly ignorant. Don't stick your head in the sand.

That's pretty much my opinion.

When you, an artist, decide to explore the moral boundaries of a society, it doesn't matter if you're a painter, a writer, a film director, a game creator or a comediant: you must be aware that any exploration has its risks (remember that Magalhaes didn't return home ). In this case, you can offend a lot of people. There are professionals of provocation, of course: their aim is actually to annoy or infuriate people just for the fun of it. But sometimes you only want to make people think about their own beliefs using art. Which type of provoker are you?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, they say. Well, it's the same for sins and moral offenses. So every artist must know at least 2 things before creating his/her art: what do you want to express, and what feelings and emotions your work may inspire in the audience -and that includes bad reactions, misunderstandings, moral issues and so on. And this is something you need to answer by yourself. You're the creator, you have all the control over your work until the very moment you release it: after that moment, you're completely exposed to the beholder's reaction. Are you ready to receive that bad feedback (maybe including legal actions)?

So, returning to the point. Do you feel comfortable telling a story with minors involved? Does age play such an important role in your artwork? Will you be moral and legally able to assume the consequences of it (even those awful actions from maniacs 'encouraged' by your work)? Every player has the option of closing the game if it contains something he/she doesn't like. But every player has also the right to feel disturbed by certain content, and to express his/her disagreement with it, so you must be ready to cope with that. If you are, go on. If you're not, try to create another game.

[DamnMilan]

Hey
I think its alright to do that, if the teenagers don't look like they are 12 years old, and if the character you're playing is also a teenager.
But i dont know why you would do that, because you can easily make 18 years old?
You're planning on making such game?

Greets

[yahoo]

I live in a country where age of consent is 15, and there is pressure to lower it (Germany, Austria, Italy, have 14), so you would be able to tell a story with a 14-year old teen with no legal repercussions in quite a lot of countries. It would be an interesting case to see if a computer rendering of a nude minor would be subject to legal action in these countries or if there would be limits to access in various US states, for example.
HBO's GoT showed that it's apparently quite legal to depict characters who were originally minors (in the books) when played by adult actors. Perhaps a trick statement that the characters are minors, but depicted by adult CG models would pass muster.

However, you mentioned a boarding school scenario with a teacher and students. Doesn't that touch another nerve? You would play a person in a position of authority engaging in a relationship with a person in his care/custody. Whether it's a child or an adult is secondary to the fact that there may be abuse of power and that the student is coerced into a non-consensual relationship or the teacher is being manipulated for favors towards the student.

Oh yeah, and one final note: teenagers are boring. They have a very limited understanding of the world and of current topics and there's hardly anything you can talk about with them. There's a distinct lack of responsibility, too, and it is common that any engagement in their activities is shallow unless it defines them as a person (e.g., sports for athletes).

And don't forget [url="https://xkcd.com/314/"]the creepiness rule[/url]. A 24-year old teacher fresh out of college shouldn't date below 19. And dating any high school student in the first year teaching would probably get him a black mark forever.

To be quite honest, you could make a much more engaging story with a young adult (24-28) that was a late bloomer that has never or rarely dated and is anxious at the prospect of a physical relationship with a reclusive guy that never had a girlfriend and has for some reason resolved to do something with his life. A relationship between two 25-year olds would be way, waaay more interesting than between two 15-year olds.
Hey, didn't I just describe Pandora?

Unless you really want to explore a teacher-student relationship, adding teens to a game won't work well. Even in that case, working this into a freshman year at college could be more realistic and open up more choices -- 18-19 years old, new teacher, less age difference -- this could work.

[Arden]

personnally, i got my first sexual ativity around that age !! those make me a pedophilic person for that (the other persons was 17)?? there's some great way to make a great game with characters of that age. is it the sexual exploration age after all?? if a game has no vulgar act like bdsm with sub 18 character, and are done in way of respect between participants i think it will be good.

this is my opinion, even if somes persons look way too much old school in their way of thinking, we are not in year 1950 anymore!!

Actually is doesnt make you "pedophilic" is the sexual relationship with a child not a minor depending on the state, on what age that would be. And since neither of you were over 18 and assuming under 13 neither of you commited a crime in most US states.

[Arden]

But to answer the posters question IMO, as many have said already if the story is right then it works. But I do not see the reasoning of making a underage person with an adult as you stated was your intent. Which in a lot of States is against the law to have sex with anyone where you have direct or indirect authority over them or their well being, I worked for the Department of Juvenile Justice for 6 years so know that very well.

Next we have so many games where little innocent girl and formely nerdie smart guy meet and he teaches her to become a woman, when in all honesty he would have blew his load in 30 seconds. But would I be interested in seeing a game of to teens in High School yes, as long as its not the same rinse repeat of the past.

Would love to see a game where it was more than just a big breasted girl that dresses like a slut, but is actually a virgin and a regular guy Not nerdie social recluse. god forbid you even throw in a little romance into it. Example nice girl in school (high school has enough drama just with that than to add anymore) she meets a nice guy acting tought( rying to fit in with the crowd) they get along but normal HS situations cause them issues. Will buy that game all day.

[lath]

I opened it to feel most people's hearts about a story involving teens over 14 or 15 yo. In a spirit of informed, voluntary and genuine sex.

A teenage story might work, if handled properly. It could explore the insecurities one has when confronting the opposite sex, the mistakes created by inexperience, the hardships faced when trying to create a perfect night and the many, many failures along the way that are in fact a learning experience.
But it's a lot of work creating all that teen drama. I don't know if it's worth the stress...

[Samvega]

IMO teenage story might be interesting, but personally I wouldn't risk putting an art, rendered or drawn, that depict someone under 18. Simply to stay safe from possible troubles that anyone with a bit of authority can cause.

[PinkVendeta]

A compass that might make sense is to look at the situation in the game and ask yourself, "would this encourage a sick pervert to molest a child?" If so, think twice. Tlaero

Ok, I was done posting about this ages ago, but then I saw Tlaero had posted and so I read what she wrote, and of course it resonated with me, and now I find myself posting again.

This is exactly the point. You do not HAVE to take responsibility for the actions of people who read/play/watch your work and then make bad decisions. But I really think you shouldn't bury your hand in the sand knowingly either. The fact is, is that there are people out there that are influenced by the average attitude exhibited in these discussions. Other people posting here have said if some crazy guy is going to molest a child, he was going to do it no matter what, but that is just not true. What IS absolutely true is that some people on the edge of insanity are extremely vulnerable to outside influences. Some dude out there may be thinking his 12 year old neighbor wants him to fuck her, and if he reads a forum that says sex with 12-year-olds is demented, he pauses and re-thinks it; however, if he reads a forum that says, ya, 12-year-olds want it bad and are just waiting for someone manly enough to take it, then all of a sudden he's pulling her into his car. This ABSOLUTELY can really happen with psychotic individuals - I know, it's related to my field of work. So, no, you did not cause a 12-year-old to get raped by saying you think it's ok to show underage sex in video games, but you should realize that if you glorify underage sex in a way that emphasizes the sexual value of underage experiences or underage bodies, then you ARE contributing to the internal argument of some nutcase out there who is trying to decide whether to molest or commit some other sex crime. So, the question is: is it worth it? What is to be gained by making your characters specifically underage, in balance with what really could be lost? Write me something as insightful and inspiring as Lolita and I will say it was worth the risk that some psycho who would not have gone over the edge otherwise, goes over the edge. But don't write it in complete ignorance, refusing to admit to yourself that there can be terrible consequences. Don't be willingly ignorant. Don't stick your head in the sand.

Great Reply and Fully Agree With Everything You Have Said.

[Mortze]

So, the question is: is it worth it? What is to be gained by making your characters specifically underage, in balance with what really could be lost? Write me something as insightful and inspiring as Lolita and I will say it was worth the risk that some psycho who would not have gone over the edge otherwise, goes over the edge. But don't write it in complete ignorance, refusing to admit to yourself that there can be terrible consequences. Don't be willingly ignorant. Don't stick your head in the sand.

Of course it might be worth it. Of course there could be something to gain. When you're writing a story that HAS to envolve minors it's supposed to be worth it. I only consider those writers who write stories envolving minors with substance, not those who only make games/manga/hentai/drawings/literature involving minors for the sake of satisfying the author or the audience animalistic fantasies disregarding the content of the support of the art.
I could make a 100 pics story of a teenage couple fucking, or of a teenage schoolgirl being raped in the subway. That's easy to do. But adding content, substance and good material to those 2 premises is another thing.
A schoolgirl being raped in the subway could either be bad hentai or a sad and dramatic story. The difference between both is that the first has a sole purpose of feeding animalistic sexual fantasies. The second could tell so much more. What a sad story could be written about that girl, that goes home broken and soiled, and changes from the A-grade schoolgirl to a depressed and suicidal girl.
Yeah, nothing fun or sexy here. But there is a story told here. A story about a victim. That's reality. Would a sick mind be amused and inspired to go take the subway and try to catch young girls? Well, that's totally beyond the motive of the creator of such story. Creators should totally be responsible for the content they produce but solely in the measure of the idea or message they want to pass through their art.
If demented people interpret the message in ways entirelly diferent that can't be on the artist.
There is responsability for the artist in defining what message, what theme and mood he wants to portray.

So much games out there envolving cheating on the wife, having sex with multiple partners, without any responsability whatsoever. In real life such behaviour might destroy many lifes, either the cheated partner, children, etc...
But a story portraying 2 teenagers discovering sex, in a mutual, respectfull, genuine process, is considered a dangerous theme for creators. And that's totally moronic in my most humble opinion. The message of a respectfull sexual experience seems to be irrelevant. The nostalgy felt by the reader of the story seems irrelevant. The only detail that matters is the age of the characters in the story. Again, that's hipocrit.

Portraying sexual relationships between teenagers isn't glorifying it. It happens in real life. As we speak teenagers are having sex, discovering it, experiencing it, either we like it or not, either it happened when we were their age or not. It's life. And it's a beautiful part of life. Why shouldn't we portray it (in a digital medium where no real person is envolved)?
But having war movies, action movies, horror movies, disaster movies, where a person's life is meaningless, because they are either bad guys or victims, is totally acceptable, it seems.
Buying guns to protect our lawn is ok, but watching a comic with two 14 yo kids having sex is utterly sick. Something is wrong with our values then.

Artistic freedom should be a reality. Bus as with everything in life, the artist should be responsible for the message he gives.

[PinkVendeta]

We will agree to disagree, there is no way to make it right and fine and put it out there and assume to take no responsibility then for the actions of people playing your game, under the guise of Artistic freedom, some lines clearly should never be crossed, that is clearly head in the sand.

Some lines I believe should not be crossed over in games, incest, rape, bestiality and underage, although if this was a forum in Japan, you would clearly not have to even have a thread to debate it, as all of those things appear in various games from Japan and the Government there has no issues with it at all, rest of the world seems to have issues with it.

[Mortze]

We will agree to disagree, there is no way to make it right and fine and put it out there and assume to take no responsibility then for the actions of people playing your game, under the guise of Artistic freedom, some lines clearly should never be crossed, that is clearly head in the sand.

Some lines I believe should not be crossed over in games, incest, rape, bestiality and underage, tho if this was a forum in Japan, you would clearly not have to even have a thread to debate it, as all of those things appear in various games from Japan and the Government there has no issues with it at all, rest of the world seems to have issues with it.

Excuse me if I do insist, but I fail to see the logic in your argument. Please explain to me where incest, rape, underage or bestiality differ, in terms of the creator responsability with:
- horror movies where the serial killer kills freely, men, women, children, ederly, even babies, freely through the whole movie and only stops when he gets killed by the end;
- action movies/comics where the "hero" does justice by his own hands, killing the supposed bad guys, and his minions (dead easily avoided because he is a hero and could do many other actions besides killing bad guys) without due judicial process;
- incest, rape and underage sex, in the many awars winner Game of Thrones franchise;
- arbitrary killing and torture in the Walking Dead, much aclaimed and loved show of AMC;
The list could go on and on.

But a 3D game (where no actors are involved) portraying a sex scene between 2 15yo seems uncrossable.

Let me revise one argument that I used before. Minor pornography (not including children pornography here) are ilegal for one major reason; to protect the actors needed to make such product; the minors. Because the law and society define that before adulthood, people don't have the maturity and ability to understand certain things and to have a voice regarding what's good for them or not. That's what defines legaly adulthood. I'd totally disagree with any movie portraying real minors because in the great majority the actors would be abused. The law exists to prevent and protect them from such abuses. To prevent people to make money from the naiveity of minors.
But when we talk about art there aren't any victims. It's just paint, letters or pixels. And here, the creator is as responsible as any movie director who makes a movie about Freddy Krueger.
Because, borderline people could as well think that they could make a bladed glove and go around killing teenagers.
Or decompensated teenagers could as well get a gun and go to their school make justice on their bullies after reading The Punisher or Judge Dredd comic books. Or played Battlefield.
There is no head in the sand. Or at least not for ones and not for others.
All these examples are entertainment that I find ok, in the end. Because I'm not borderlined. Because I can't tell apart what's right and what's wrong. But some people can't and entertainment creators CAN'T be blamed, in any point, for those deranged people.
Unless they purposelly told a message that it is ok to do what the decompensated person whish to hear.
But here I go back to the formentioned question:
- Is it right to make a movie about a serial killer going happy all around and wrong to tell a story about a teenage couple discovering sex?
In the end, if you think it is right yes, and wrong yes, then we sure have a great rift of ethical thinking between us.

[PinkVendeta]

Some people will agree with your logic, some people will never agree with your logic, when someone says we will agree to disagree, I think it is clear which side of the fence they are on.

I dont agree with You, and that is that, but good luck if You ever make a game like that in the EU or rest of the world, although Japan who wont care either way and it would probably do well there.

[Mortze]

Some people will agree with your logic, some people will never agree with your logic, when someone says we will agree to disagree, I think it is clear which side of the fence they are on.

I dont agree with You, and that is that, but good luck if You ever make a game like that in the EU or rest of the world, although Japan who wont care either way and it would probably do well there.

I know that. I didn't opened this thread to try and convice everybody that I'm right.
But as our ancesters did in ancient Rome, and their ancesters before them, we gather in a forum not to try to convert others to our beliefs but to share opinions and ideas, and get richer by every exchange of words.

I'm very confortable about the legality of this in my country, and by extent in the EU. I'm not looking for legal counsel. I'm looking for people's opinions on this matter and wheither they stand.

And a rich debate place gets its strenght by people engaging in the debate right. What a forum our beloved romans would have if Senator Grachus arrived and said "I like Gauls" and Senator Tulius replied "Well, I don't" and they turned their backs on each other and went home. There wouldn't be much of a debate would it.

[LRM]

I locked this thread yesterday... It's once again unlocked.
BEFORE anyone tries to add their opinion, please READ all earlier posts trying to persuade Mortze to change his opinion, and his replies to those posts.
I honestly don't think any possible argument, pro and con has not already been discussed to the nth degree.
Please give it a rest.
LRM

[Taylor Strutt]

Many games have a place where you insert a name, which the game then uses in conversations to make it more personal. There should be a way to do something similar with age. For example, at the front of the game it asks the player to put in the minimum age a character can be (for example 18). Then the game uses that age as the benchmark but can add years for other characters (for example input age+2 becomes 18 + 2= 20). You could even add a disclaimer on the "input age" screen to warn players to keep it above age of consent for their area. This way you could create the game you want without really sacrificing too much, yet it is up to the player to choose how young a characters are, and the only way the game breaks local laws is if the player chooses to do so, not due to the game itself.

Obviously this idea may be a bit of a cop out to your question, but it hopefully satisfies both sides. The trouble with this idea is that it would require more coding, some of the wording would need to be open ended to cover multiple ages, and yes a person could go even younger than you intended.