Good news from abroad...

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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby Greyelf » Tue, 17Nov28 13:21

flyrenders wrote:I know a lot of people that got suspended and they only had to edit their public posts and remove some keywords from their pages.

Some developers with unwanted content in their games did as you stated when Patreon first contacted/suspended them, these developers were then contacted again and this time told to remove the unwanted content from their games if they wanted to keep these games on their Patreon accounts.

I believe the delay between the first & second contacts by Patreon may be a result of the time it took Patreon: to resolve their new stance on the unwanted content; and to check the games themselves to determine how much of the unwanted content they contained.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby ut1stgear1 » Tue, 17Nov28 14:30

Greyelf wrote:Some developers with unwanted content in their games did as you stated when Patreon first contacted/suspended them, these developers were then contacted again and this time told to remove the unwanted content from their games if they wanted to keep these games on their Patreon accounts.

I believe the delay between the first & second contacts by Patreon may be a result of the time it took Patreon: to resolve their new stance on the unwanted content; and to check the games themselves to determine how much of the unwanted content they contained.


I agree with Greyelf. All of the Patreon sites I follow have found a way to get their games out as public releases by simply using a non-Patreon host to download from. I think the main issue is the public nature of their title pages and that the content contained on them is completely open to anyone regardless of age. This new policy/rule puts at least one layer of protection to an accidental search bringing up content we might not want our children/teenager to see and puts the responsibility back on the parents to keep a vigil eye on what our underage children/teenagers are doing.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby flyrenders » Tue, 17Nov28 18:12

Greyelf wrote:
flyrenders wrote:I know a lot of people that got suspended and they only had to edit their public posts and remove some keywords from their pages.

Some developers with unwanted content in their games did as you stated when Patreon first contacted/suspended them, these developers were then contacted again and this time told to remove the unwanted content from their games if they wanted to keep these games on their Patreon accounts.

I believe the delay between the first & second contacts by Patreon may be a result of the time it took Patreon: to resolve their new stance on the unwanted content; and to check the games themselves to determine how much of the unwanted content they contained.


Didn't know about that. Are these creators with a lot of supporters?
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby kessie8dn » Tue, 17Nov28 18:13

I'm not sure what to make of the unexpectedly high number of people who seem to have missed what I said..

"I found the concept a total turn-off which spoiled some, what otherwise looked, really good games."

I take the point that some devs may be more interested in the incest element than the rest of the game content - and some players too - However, I know from previous posts here that I am not alone in finding it a bit of a turn off.

I still remain hopeful that the devs who have taken the time and effort to produce those otherwise good quality (in artwork and playability) games will not be put off simply because they're no longer allowed to exploit the incest element. Another alternative is some other site could pop up to act as their host but I hope that isn't the case.

I agree it remains to be seen and I have made no actual prediction either way, but to my knowledge no game by Shark (pretty sure he wouldn't even allow a link to such a game tbh), Leoniser and the rest of the LoP group, Pusooy or any of the others we frequently discuss here, have used incest in any of their games, yet the games are none the poorer for it.

Unless we're suggesting some popular devs are producing the incest games under a different name there seems to be a lot of talent out there which could be more widely available. I hope they choose to take that route is all I'm saying.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby kessie8dn » Tue, 17Nov28 18:43

As for Patreon's actions - No doubt I will be corrected but I cannot think of a single developed nation (that matters) where incest is permitted. Maybe people should consider that before jumping on the "censorship" bandwagon. You really think they'll risk the rest of their business, and possible criminal proceedings, for the sake of a few incest game developers? Of course not.

It's also wrong to lump incest in with the question of characters being "under age", as some people seem to be trying to do... A great number of the games start with a flash card along the lines of "All characters portrayed are intended to be above the legal age of consent for whichever country you are in" as a kind of legal fig-leaf... I'm not convinced they would stand up to any real test in court (for example in UK law the legal test is not how old the subject actually is, but how old they appear to be to a reasonable observer) but I think it's unlikely to be seriously challenged unless some really large amounts of money are involved, as seems to be the case with small acts of copyright infringement over the use of some popular fictional characters, etc. The cops have a hard enough job to do tracking down people who are harming real kids to make porn.

Incest, however, is another matter. You can hardly go having characters being described as "Mum, son, daddy, sister", etc, and then claim they're not supposed to be related.

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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby Mortze » Tue, 17Nov28 20:29

kessie8dn wrote:As for Patreon's actions - No doubt I will be corrected but I cannot think of a single developed nation (that matters) where incest is permitted. Maybe people should consider that before jumping on the "censorship" bandwagon. You really think they'll risk the rest of their business, and possible criminal proceedings, for the sake of a few incest game developers? Of course not.

No doubt indeed. You need to be corrected :)
To my knowledge (certain to a 100% for my own country) many developed nations don't have any laws forbidding 2 informed and consensual adults to have sexual relations. Portugal, the Netherlands, Spain, Slovenia, and Sweden are such examples. I'm sure the number is much greater. There may be laws in almost all countries against marriage between family related people, but these countries I mentioned don't have laws forbidding the actual sex.
As it should be in developed civilized nations.
One of the signals of an undeveloped or non-democratic country is the amount of laws governing what the citizens should do in their private life where they bother no one.
An entirely different question is the moral opinion about incest. Incest may not be forbidden in Portugal but I'm sure there will be social repercussions to those who practice it.

I'm pretty confident that if I make a game in the E.U. about 2 adults - a father and his daughter - having sexual relations, there won't be any legal consequences for me. Same thing if I create a company to promote such a game.
There's tons of legally distributed porn DVDs in your closest sex shop with titles like "Candy for Daddy".
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby Greyelf » Tue, 17Nov28 20:31

kessie8dn wrote:... but I cannot think of a single developed nation (that matters) where incest is permitted.

Laws that define what 'Incest' it, which 'Family Relationship Types' it effects, when it is covered by the relevant Sexual Interactions laws, and when it is covered by the relevant Marriage laws varies greatly depending on what Legal Region you are in (Union, Country, State, etc...) as shown by the Laws regarding incest Wikipedia(**) Article. In some legal regions there are no laws prohibiting the activity, in other legal regions it is the act of marriage that is prohibited and not the sexual act, it other legal regions it is the age of those involved that is the main determining factor, and all this just goes to show that laws covering this topic can vary greatly.

As to a single developed nation (that matters) reference that is a vary subjective reference but as Patreon is a USA company I will assume that USA may be one of the developed nations 'that matter', and based on the linked article (and ones it in turn links to) the act of Incest (as defined by the relevant Legal Region) appears to be legal in some states under certain conditions. This again shows that this is a complex topic.

eg, in New Jersey it appears to be OK as long as those involved are consenting adults.

(**) I know that Wikipedia isn't an ideal source for factual information.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby Rexxx » Tue, 17Nov28 22:56

I wasn't sure if posting, because this seems an argument in which everyone has his ideas and won't change.
Law depends where one lives and can change, there are places where homosexuality is illegal and many people would applaude to censorship about that, so censorship isn't always the better idea.
I'm not interested in incest or gay relationship, but in the real world if informed and consentual adult wants to do sex I don't see the difference if they are the same sex or they have blood relationship, I won't do, but they are free for me, naturally risking to have children that can have genetic problems or mother or father with minors are different situations (and the latter is illegal in any case), without this reasons I cannot understand what big crime that people are making (and I know that for the society I'm grown If I see thatv scene my first reaction is to be shocked).
Aside this I don't like the politics of Ptreon, they are declaring some rules, but they don't want to lose money, because they will need to close too much pages if they decide to make respects the rules, aside incest games in which there isn't blackmail, mind control, some powers or furry or animalistic character (pratically bestiality) aren't so much.
In any case if someone wants to stay on Patreon needs to respect their rules, none can change that, but I think funny that someone can think that removing incest will cause the author to make better games not using that ideas.
First is not that removing incest make a game better, second the author depends on patrons support, if so many people supported incest games it's not sure that for them is the same when vanish, not only because people spend for what they wants to see (if not for the themes I cannot understand how some ugly games can have patrons), but because they will decide to protest against Patreon in the only way they can, quitting theis support (and this will hit all the authors).
It's also probably that in the medium - long time born competitors that want to absorb this people and this can be even worse, because people won't like to support different authors on different sites.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby ut1stgear1 » Wed, 17Nov29 08:58

Let's not forget one important aspect of most democratic countries since Patreon is a US company. That is lobbyists, not all of whom are interested in making a profit from lobbying. Many of those groups carry a moral agenda and wield as much power here in the US as any of the ones that financially back our politicians. They can also apply pressure to companies with a simple threat to bring legal action or use their lobbying activities to "encourage" our government to enact laws that support their agenda. Thus if one or more of these groups threatened Patreon with law suits if they didn't do something about some of the content then it would cause a financial burden for Patreon to fight in court. Thus we end up with a moral, financial and possibly legal issue here.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby kessie8dn » Fri, 17Dec01 02:40

ut1stgear1 wrote:Let's not forget one important aspect of most democratic countries since Patreon is a US company. That is lobbyists, not all of whom are interested in making a profit from lobbying. Many of those groups carry a moral agenda and wield as much power here in the US as any of the ones that financially back our politicians. They can also apply pressure to companies with a simple threat to bring legal action or use their lobbying activities to "encourage" our government to enact laws that support their agenda. Thus if one or more of these groups threatened Patreon with law suits if they didn't do something about some of the content then it would cause a financial burden for Patreon to fight in court. Thus we end up with a moral, financial and possibly legal issue here.


That just about covers what I meant by countries "that matter"...
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby kessie8dn » Fri, 17Dec01 02:54

Mortze wrote:
kessie8dn wrote:As for Patreon's actions - No doubt I will be corrected but I cannot think of a single developed nation (that matters) where incest is permitted. Maybe people should consider that before jumping on the "censorship" bandwagon. You really think they'll risk the rest of their business, and possible criminal proceedings, for the sake of a few incest game developers? Of course not.

No doubt indeed. You need to be corrected :)
To my knowledge (certain to a 100% for my own country) many developed nations don't have any laws forbidding 2 informed and consensual adults to have sexual relations. Portugal, the Netherlands, Spain, Slovenia, and Sweden are such examples. I'm sure the number is much greater. There may be laws in almost all countries against marriage between family related people, but these countries I mentioned don't have laws forbidding the actual sex.
As it should be in developed civilized nations.
One of the signals of an undeveloped or non-democratic country is the amount of laws governing what the citizens should do in their private life where they bother no one.
An entirely different question is the moral opinion about incest. Incest may not be forbidden in Portugal but I'm sure there will be social repercussions to those who practice it.

I'm pretty confident that if I make a game in the E.U. about 2 adults - a father and his daughter - having sexual relations, there won't be any legal consequences for me. Same thing if I create a company to promote such a game.
There's tons of legally distributed porn DVDs in your closest sex shop with titles like "Candy for Daddy".


Not sure where you're from Mortze but incest in Germany can get you up to 3 years jail time and it's not legal in Sweden either...

However, as I repeated above, I qualified my original statement by saying countries "that matter". As previously indicated, the people of the USA are particularly litigious but, due to the nature of the worldwide web there is no stopping a case being raised in any court elsewhere. In the UK if a publication is considered to be pornographic action could be take against not only those who produce and transmit it but also those who download it.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby Greyelf » Fri, 17Dec01 21:37

kessie8dn wrote:
ut1stgear1 wrote:Let's not forget one important aspect of most democratic countries since Patreon is a US company. That is lobbyists, not all of whom are interested in making a profit from lobbying. Many of those groups carry a moral agenda and wield as much power here in the US as any of the ones that financially back our politicians. They can also apply pressure to companies with a simple threat to bring legal action or use their lobbying activities to "encourage" our government to enact laws that support their agenda. Thus if one or more of these groups threatened Patreon with law suits if they didn't do something about some of the content then it would cause a financial burden for Patreon to fight in court. Thus we end up with a moral, financial and possibly legal issue here.


That just about covers what I meant by countries "that matter"...

I find it sad that a government elected by the public to represent the needs (and wants) of the public sometimes give more importance and attention to the wants of a "private special interest group with money" than they do to the public that elected them. :??: :crazy:

** But there is the old idiom that "money talks"
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby Tao Dude » Fri, 17Dec01 23:53

Greyelf wrote:** But there is the old idiom that "money talks"


'twas ever thus, and the bible bashers (for it is they who have the biggest downer on incest) have shed-loads of money.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby HeyChief » Sat, 17Dec02 02:54

Remember folks, we have the best Lawmakers MONEY can buy. Not a joke fact.
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Re: Good news from abroad...

Postby Rexxx » Sat, 17Dec02 09:22

I don't know exactly the laws in every country (in any country for honesty), because not having a relatives that I want to have sex I don't care, but we all have to remember that we all talking about games.
In AAA Games, sold in millions copy, we can steal, blackmail or kill (or worse as the bomb in fallout 3), but this doesn't mean we are monsters in real life, at the same time I would want to see the same treatment in erotic game (even for kink I don't like, because I know that people can be different), but in every media it seems that a tits is more dangerous than a gun.
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