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Re: Adult games's news

Postby yahoo » Mon, 18Mar12 11:51

moskys wrote:Frankly, I still don't understand all this bitterness. Their site, their business, their rules. As simple as that.

Not so simple:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/05/poli ... index.html

They aren't doing anything wrong (although you can always implement your new rules in a better way). But all this criticism based on freedom of speech, legal/illegal content... come on.

See above. Businesses have no right to discriminate between content that's legal.
As I've argued, a case could be made for stories about incest to be perfectly legal, since there is no actual incest taking place. There might even be a lawyer willing to take this to court, but I wouldn't bet on it.

When you rely on a third party for your incomes, you're always at his hands.

Take a basic employee-employer relationship. Who do the employees rely on for their income? Their employer, their employer's bank, or their own bank? According to law, their employer is the sole party responsible for the employee's income. The same way, content creators using Patreon are reliant on their patrons for their income, emphatically not on Patreon's whims.

Companies have the right to change their policies whenever they want. And those changes always have an impact on every stakeholder and may allow new opportunities for some other companies.

Sure. Patreon could change their policy so that starting today, their fees are 100% with zero going to creators, and that it's illegal to leave Patreon and set up elsewhere. Oh, and suck it up, chumps. Hahaha, free money.
Patreon literally tried this the other month, by introducing an extra charge with no prior warning. This was met with serious backlash and only threats forced them to reconsider.
There's this pesky concept called "goodwill" and as a user, you have a legally binding expectation that policies will not change without notice and without due process. Patreon is violating goodwill left and right and they will get replaced, you can expect this.

Mortze wrote:Patreon might suffer business consequences, reputation consequences, but it won't suffer legal consequences for denying any kind of content on their site. And that's the way it should be.

As long as they don't step on the toes of anyone powerful enough or they don't cross any sensitive agenda, they're fairly safe.
Imagine what would happen if they tried to ban homosexual content on their site. "Their site, their rules", you say?

It has come to my knowledge that Incest (along with bestiality, minors depicted sex, necrophilia, non-consensual sex, has always been in their Guidelines, from the start. Patreon just decided to turn a blind eye on games with those themes, or was purely unaware of those games' themes (didn't played the games or checked thoroughly the Patreon pages). Anyway, those in the wrong, from the start, were the creators that violated Patreon's rules on Adult content.
Showing discontentment now that Patreon decided to enforce their INITIAL rules is nothing less than bad-faith.

They added incest to their rules specifically. And I already pointed out that it's not illegal.
Icky, sure. But not illegal.

It would be a very different thing if they decided to shut down any type of adult content, because the guidelines, as we speak, never forbade it. That would be, a very harsh and unfair - yet very legal - decision from Patreon. Paypal did just that. But Paypal is a big player that can afford that sort of dirty trick. Patreon can't.

It was specifically Braintree (subsidiary of Paypal) that suspended payments to adult creators until Patreon managed to convince them that they do not carry the typical customer risk of chargebacks and claims of fraudulent use.

The real risk is that Patreon might have no say in this and taking them to court will accomplish nothing because no other party will be able to set up.
However, it's not exactly true.
There's nothing stopping somebody outside the US from setting up where these rules don't apply. The only tricky part is going to be connecting with payment processors, but there's a bunch in EU that will accept credit cards issued by US banks, and they would be ecstatic to do just that.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby Mortze » Mon, 18Mar12 14:34

yahoo wrote:Mortze wrote:
Patreon might suffer business consequences, reputation consequences, but it won't suffer legal consequences for denying any kind of content on their site. And that's the way it should be.

As long as they don't step on the toes of anyone powerful enough or they don't cross any sensitive agenda, they're fairly safe.
Imagine what would happen if they tried to ban homosexual content on their site. "Their site, their rules", you say?


That's a falacious argument. Refusing to host Incest content isn't the same thing as blatantly discriminating homosexuality. Homosexuality isn't a taboo theme in civilized countries anymore, where Incest still is. In the eyes of the law it is acceptable to ban Incest content, and even to ban sexual content, but it isn't to ban just homosexual content, because that ban would be motivated by homophobia and therefore, the company would perform a policy of homophobia. Same thing if it banned sexual content with black people.

yahoo wrote:They aren't doing anything wrong (although you can always implement your new rules in a better way). But all this criticism based on freedom of speech, legal/illegal content... come on.

See above. Businesses have no right to discriminate between content that's legal.
As I've argued, a case could be made for stories about incest to be perfectly legal, since there is no actual incest taking place. There might even be a lawyer willing to take this to court, but I wouldn't bet on it.


Again, falacious. Your example is about homosexual discrimination, in a country (or state) where homosexuality is a protected right. When the law expressly protects rights (right of speech, right of freedom, right of sexual preference, right of gender equality, etc...) no company can perform violating those rights. Whereas one can be a homophobic in is own home, a company can't be when treating employees and costumers. But, to my knowledge, there's no legislation, in civilized countries, protecting Incest in any form. Therefore, if it's not protected it can be subjectively treated by Patreon the way it wants, like banning it outright.

yahoo wrote:It has come to my knowledge that Incest (along with bestiality, minors depicted sex, necrophilia, non-consensual sex, has always been in their Guidelines, from the start. Patreon just decided to turn a blind eye on games with those themes, or was purely unaware of those games' themes (didn't played the games or checked thoroughly the Patreon pages). Anyway, those in the wrong, from the start, were the creators that violated Patreon's rules on Adult content.
Showing discontentment now that Patreon decided to enforce their INITIAL rules is nothing less than bad-faith.

They added incest to their rules specifically. And I already pointed out that it's not illegal.
Icky, sure. But not illegal.

Nor is illegal to ban it outright. That's why I'm saying that commercial, business, consequences might come of it, but no legal ones. While there's legislation forbidding necrophilia there's none forbidding representation of necrophilia in art (contrary to pedophilia which is forbid in art). I really doubt any court of law will force me to accept that kind of fetishism in my site for the sake of freedom of speech or just because it's not illegal to make games with necrophilia. It may not be an illegal subject of art but it isn't illegal either for me to refuse to be associated with it. It just happens that there's a lot of people that got frustrated that Patreon refused Incest content, but close to none has expressed the same frustration about the necrophilia, bestiality, and non-consensual sex ban whereas it's the same principle.
Yeah, Incest is so much a lighter subject than the others, but are we talking about legality here, about Patreon doing something wrong, or are we talking about personal fetishes that can't be fulfilled? Seems to me that's a rather egoistical quest, confronted with a logical business choice from Patreon.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby yahoo » Mon, 18Mar12 15:05

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. In my opinion, yes, Patreon was perfectly in the right to ban incest content, but at the same time, it was an unexpected that pulled the rug out from beneath quite a few people's feet.
The only difference in how they should have handled it was to grandfather all the projects affected by this and demand a stop to any new thread in affected content. So no new characters to be added that would violate the rules, but let the projects complete as they are. People would have probably found loopholes, but

I do hope that this won't affect you or other creators I support, but those that I follow, I can see that a lot were affected, and even those not directly affected are feeling that they will have to move to another platform -- we'll see if that doesn't cause Patreon to actually collapse...
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby Mortze » Mon, 18Mar12 16:46

Patreon won't collapse because NSFW content is small potatoes for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have done this at all. Most probably Patreon will get stronger because people who didn't want to associate themselves with a platform that had incest will feel more comfortable now to be on Patreon.

I recognize and agree that it was a sudden decision, and Patreon itself recognized it and wrote long texts to apologize to creators and patrons. They have been quite humble with this and have always been diplomatic. Mr Dots (Dating My Daughter) had many discussions wit Patreon to try to fit his game somehow, they tried many solutions, but eventually no compromise could be found. There was dialogue. There are many other cases, with Paypal most blatantly, where they simply shut you down, without notice, or appeal.
Also, in the case of Summertime Saga, the creator maintained his content the exact same way, more than 6 months after Patreon notified everyone about the Guidelines. The creator didn't changed a thing. Now there's uproar about it being shutdown! 6 months is enough time to reconsider the content you provide, change the story, or start a new game, or consider other options.
Apparently Summertime Saga is up again, and working well, on Patreon. They don't seem to have changed a thing which is quite odd. It seems that Patreon doesn't have the same criteria for everyone... That's sad.

If the guidelines keep the same Tlaero and I are safe. We don't dwell in the forbidden themes. There was a time I considered making a game with incest but I was convinced not to do it. Looks like it was a good decision. Our current projects are safe, and now we know that if we think about something that might be icky then we just have to ask Patreon first instead of spending time and energy for nothing.

What I want to insist on is that Patreon isn't adverse to NSFW material. They just don't want X, Y, or Z specific adult content. I find it odd that a creator would feel betrayed and have his life destroyed just because he can't make a game about incest anymore. If he has artistic value he will find something else to create, with quality, that fits into Patreon's guidelines. Otherwise he's just someone who makes a quality-devoid game with incest and can't make anything else. I find that weird.
Mr Dots has decided to make a new game, without incest and I'm sure that he'll get his fan base back really quick because his previous game had more than just incest in it.

There was a drop in his income, for sure, and that's unfortunate. It's an unfair situation for creators who depend on Patreon for their income.
But I can't blame Patreon despite that. They made a business decision, perhaps to keep open, and pay their employees salaries, avoiding bad rep that could make Patreon close doors.
I prefer to blame the false sense of Puritanism, the hypocrisy that exists in social media, press, Paypal, politicians, social paladins, that think they have the right to dictate what can or can't be anyone's fetishes (if they are harmless), and forcing themselves (like a sexual abuser, mind you!) on companies like Patreon, that just want to (not only make money, but also) globalize art, and allow a creator in Australia to make his art to be enjoyed by a patron in Peru.
Sure, that results in some shitty material, but I'll take 99 shitty games if there's only 1 creator that makes a fabulous game. I wouldn't have the chance of meeting that creator's art if not for Patreon.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby tlaero » Tue, 18Mar13 01:33

yahoo wrote:Businesses have no right to discriminate between content that's legal.


If this were true, then all movie theaters would be required to host XXX rated films. Pornography is legal...

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Re: Adult games's news

Postby yahoo » Tue, 18Mar13 09:12

tlaero wrote:
yahoo wrote:Businesses have no right to discriminate between content that's legal.


If this were true, then all movie theaters would be required to host XXX rated films. Pornography is legal...

Tlaero


I guess there's lack of interest from the industry, but I imagine if they really wanted to, they could legally approach a theater or a distribution network and try to sell them their movies, and then take them to court if they refused to carry them. After all, movie theaters did show pornography ages ago, when no other means of distribution existed.

Here's a good discussion on engadget:
https://www.engadget.com/2017/10/27/pat ... certainty/

I don't know if NSFW creators were a big chunk of Patreon or not. They were certainly attractive enough to keep them on board for 2+ years before deciding to crack down on them as soon as there was a steady stream of income from other sources.

This does open up a niche for a new site catering specifically to NSFW themes and you can expect something will crop up. There's enough money laying on the street for that to happen. It only needs a trustworthy payment processor on board (and there are some that will have no qualms about it). It doesn't even need to be in the US.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby moskys » Tue, 18Mar13 18:33

yahoo wrote:
tlaero wrote:
yahoo wrote:Businesses have no right to discriminate between content that's legal.


If this were true, then all movie theaters would be required to host XXX rated films. Pornography is legal...

Tlaero


I guess there's lack of interest from the industry, but I imagine if they really wanted to, they could legally approach a theater or a distribution network and try to sell them their movies, and then take them to court if they refused to carry them. After all, movie theaters did show pornography ages ago, when no other means of distribution existed.

Here's a good discussion on engadget:
https://www.engadget.com/2017/10/27/pat ... certainty/

I don't know if NSFW creators were a big chunk of Patreon or not. They were certainly attractive enough to keep them on board for 2+ years before deciding to crack down on them as soon as there was a steady stream of income from other sources.

This does open up a niche for a new site catering specifically to NSFW themes and you can expect something will crop up. There's enough money laying on the street for that to happen. It only needs a trustworthy payment processor on board (and there are some that will have no qualms about it). It doesn't even need to be in the US.


I still have serious doubts. "Hey, I'm producing a 100% legal product, you MUST sell it on your store if I tell you to do it." I don't think it works that way in any market.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby yahoo » Tue, 18Mar13 20:05

moskys wrote:
yahoo wrote:
tlaero wrote:
yahoo wrote:Businesses have no right to discriminate between content that's legal.


If this were true, then all movie theaters would be required to host XXX rated films. Pornography is legal...

Tlaero


I guess there's lack of interest from the industry, but I imagine if they really wanted to, they could legally approach a theater or a distribution network and try to sell them their movies, and then take them to court if they refused to carry them. After all, movie theaters did show pornography ages ago, when no other means of distribution existed.

Here's a good discussion on engadget:
https://www.engadget.com/2017/10/27/pat ... certainty/

I don't know if NSFW creators were a big chunk of Patreon or not. They were certainly attractive enough to keep them on board for 2+ years before deciding to crack down on them as soon as there was a steady stream of income from other sources.

This does open up a niche for a new site catering specifically to NSFW themes and you can expect something will crop up. There's enough money laying on the street for that to happen. It only needs a trustworthy payment processor on board (and there are some that will have no qualms about it). It doesn't even need to be in the US.


I still have serious doubts. "Hey, I'm producing a 100% legal product, you MUST sell it on your store if I tell you to do it." I don't think it works that way in any market.

That's true. But if you approach the owner and ask, and then you're given unrealistic demands to carry your product, it's a barrier to entry and its' anti-competitive.
That might be a European thing, but it's illegal here if you're willing to take it to court.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby Sarchx » Wed, 18Mar14 00:09

yahoo wrote:That's true. But if you approach the owner and ask, and then you're given unrealistic demands to carry your product, it's a barrier to entry and its' anti-competitive.
That might be a European thing, but it's illegal here if you're willing to take it to court.


Just no.
If we hold onto the cinema example...
The owners of the cinema can just say "no thanks". They don't even have to give you a reason - their cinema, their business, their rules.
If some cinema decides they don't want to show porn, then they are free to do so. The same would go, if they decided they don't want to show cartoons, horror movies etc.
There is nothing illegal for them to make that choice, and this patreon thing is exactly the same.

That's how it works in, at least some parts of Europe - and I've never heard of any laws that demands certain content to be shown, or you are liable to be sued, in any European country. (Doesn't mean it couldn't exist, but I've never heard of such a thing.)
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby Greebo » Wed, 18Mar14 00:29

Hmm -- I seem to recollect a case in the US in which the self-avowed Christian owners of a bakery refused to produce a wedding cake for a gay marriage and were pilloried and sued over it. Did they not have the right to refuse to serve their would be customers when it interfered with their sense of morality? I'd have thought PayPal and Patreon would have much less right to take the moral high ground. PayPal in particular because when it comes down to it, all they are is a financial and escrow service and should only be attending to the legality of the transactions they oversee. Should shark's bank be allowed to tell him to bugger off and do his financial transactions elsewhere because some of his money comes from running a site that is concerned with "naughty games and images"?
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby Greyelf » Wed, 18Mar14 00:47

yahoo wrote:That's true. But if you approach the owner and ask, and then you're given unrealistic demands to carry your product, it's a barrier to entry and its' anti-competitive.
That might be a European thing, but it's illegal here if you're willing to take it to court.

This is only true IF the related product is specifically protected by any relevant laws or regulations, like that relating to the anti-discrimination of age, of disability, of race, of sex, of intersex status, of gender identity, of religion, etc..... (I think you get the general idea)

The large majority of products that exist are not covered by such protections, so there is no legal requirement for a seller to stock/supply them.

So to further the cinema example...

I have heard of no laws or regulations that protect the rights to sell/show XXX rated films, so if there aren't any then there is no legal requirement for a shop owner or movie theatre to do so.
(there are however laws or regulations that restrict where XXX rated films can be sold and what sexual content they can contain.)
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby tlaero » Wed, 18Mar14 02:31

There is a distinction between who you sell your product to and what your product is.

The laws forbid discrimination, but discrimination can only affect a person, not a thing. Patreon can not refuse to let a person become a patron just because that person is homosexual. Patreon can't even refuse to let a person become a patron if he's married to his sister.

But Patreon has no legal requirement to sell any product. They can choose to not sell porn. They can choose to not sell religious material. They can choose to not sell cello performances. Whatever they want to do. Furthermore, it is perfectly legal for them to choose what they sell for "nefarious" reasons. They can choose to only sell products made by companies that bribe them. They can choose to only sell products by people who give them an exclusive. They can choose to only sell products made in Alabama. These are standard business practices all over the world. TV stations only air shows that pay the station money. Malls only allow stores that pay them rent. Sony signs exclusive deals to keep a Playstation game from running on Xbox. Netflix and HBO have exclusive shows. There is literally a store called "Made in Washington" that only sells products made in the state of Washington, even though it's not illegal to make products in Oregon.

There is not one shred of legal precedent that would require Patreon to sell incest material. They can't choose who to sell to, but they can choose what to sell.

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Re: Adult games's news

Postby JFR » Wed, 18Mar14 07:38

Greebo wrote:Hmm -- I seem to recollect a case in the US in which the self-avowed Christian owners of a bakery refused to produce a wedding cake for a gay marriage and were pilloried and sued over it. Did they not have the right to refuse to serve their would be customers when it interfered with their sense of morality? ...

The bakery lost that case in local court but it is now headed to the Supreme Court. With the make-up and tilt of the current SCOTUS, I wouldn't be surprised if they reverse and find in favor of the bakery. It will be interesting either way.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby moskys » Wed, 18Mar14 10:25

JFR wrote:
Greebo wrote:Hmm -- I seem to recollect a case in the US in which the self-avowed Christian owners of a bakery refused to produce a wedding cake for a gay marriage and were pilloried and sued over it. Did they not have the right to refuse to serve their would be customers when it interfered with their sense of morality? ...

The bakery lost that case in local court but it is now headed to the Supreme Court. With the make-up and tilt of the current SCOTUS, I wouldn't be surprised if they reverse and find in favor of the bakery. It will be interesting either way.


Actually @yahoo linked that story when replying me.
yahoo wrote:
moskys wrote:Frankly, I still don't understand all this bitterness. Their site, their business, their rules. As simple as that.

Not so simple:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/05/poli ... index.html


yahoo wrote:
moskys wrote:
I still have serious doubts. "Hey, I'm producing a 100% legal product, you MUST sell it on your store if I tell you to do it." I don't think it works that way in any market.

That's true. But if you approach the owner and ask, and then you're given unrealistic demands to carry your product, it's a barrier to entry and its' anti-competitive.
That might be a European thing, but it's illegal here if you're willing to take it to court.

I'm from Spain so I'm aware of EU competitive regulations, although I'm not an expert. Maybe you can sue Patreon for abuse of a dominant position (if they have that dominant position in their market, which I ignore). But we're talking about a complex issue in which we should take into consideration other EU regulations regarding digital services, payment methods (and free capital movements) and maybe child protection. Is Patreon breaking any of these when they decide to delete 'sensitive' content from their site giving their customers a reasonable time to adapt their products to the new rules? Is this an 'unrealistic' demand which means an entry barrier or creates a competitive distortion? If one of this creators feels his content is treated diferently from other's similar content, maybe he can call for a discrimination issue, but it's a very grey area in my not so well informed opinion.
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Re: Adult games's news

Postby shark » Wed, 18Mar14 13:09

I follow this discussion with interest and I admit that I have difficulties to understand some arguments.
I don't know the regulations of all the countries but I ask a question : is there a country where you can force a merchant to sell a product? (Because Patreon is a merchant, he pays his suppliers and resells the products to get a profit.)
My usual store has just removed my favorite ice cream from its shelves but I do not think I can sue it... ;)
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