Pandora

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Re: Pandora

Postby yahoo » Thu, 17May18 10:09

tlaero wrote:Re: Rita. I don't fully remember the conversation, but I'm pretty sure I convinced Mortze not to have an actual Rita sex scene and make it a daydream instead. I don't think those two actually having sex is in character for either of them (whereas I think the dream sequence is completely in character for Kean). All that said, if people feel strongly about this and Mortze would like for me to change it, I'd be happy to change the few sentences after the scene happens to make it have really happened and Rita admonishes Kean to not tell anyone. Mortze, it's up to you.

Tlaero

Absolutely not. The way it's written now is great. Kean is still a little overwhelmed by the kiss, hormones and imagination running wild, she locks the door (at least it's what he thinks he saw) and then she mentions the kiss again, he gets his hopes up, way up, and the daydream is just inevitable.
Actual sex would be too awkward to actually put there. For Kean it would be over before it started. There's just no way it could happen. Weltmeister also brought up a valid point -- Kean would not be virgin anymore, and it would require rewriting the rest of the game.
Well, not necessarily. Maggie would be heartbroken, and that would mean game over since the search would be called off.


Weltmeister wrote:But if he cares for opinions of player: maybe you could do some small hints for a sexual relationship between Kean and Rita in future games. There is no need for an explicit scene but maybe we could get the conclusion by how they treat each other or how they act around each other.

You already see the two lovebirds (Kean and Maggie) cuddling in the hot tub by the end of the game. There's no way to introduce a sexual relationship between Kean and anybody else.

But if I could write the story by myself: Maggie is not a young girl but more like an ancient god in disguise so Keans and her relationship will have no future. Kean is depressed and Rita somehow notices that she does have feelings for this little lad. And Farik lets her go.

That is just... so... no.
I get where it's coming from, the dramatic eyes thing and the fact that Maggie was the one to reveal the location of Atlantis.
However, even if she was, she wouldn't risk it. If making a dramatic scene was needed, she'd just come (or pretend to come, Kean wouldn't know the difference) and do the eyes.
If the orgasm was actually needed, goddess Maggie would still not risk it and would try to get in bed with Kean at least a couple of times before the final scene. Oh, and she wouldn't be disappointed at Kean being blown by Cassandra, she'd just pretend she didn't know, just to get Kean to bed.
And finally, she wouldn't come on board as Captain's daughter, she'd be there as an attractive young woman in place of Roos or Kaori.



xsandman78 wrote:Personally I find the whole notion of building up a connection with Rita whilst playing as kean and then handing her over to be fucked by one of the other characters jarring.

I'd punch you if I could. "Handing her over"? Is Rita some goods to be handled and traded? Rita and Kean never had any chance as a couple. Rita isn't interested in a relationship with Kean and just sees him as sort of a little brother.

lucaskent123456 wrote:I do agree in two points with the comments I've seen. I didn't like Kean very much, specially in chapter 2. I mean, he was like super duper nerdy, I think even some nerds can find that offensive.

I found Kean's behavior silly at times, but never offensive.
I'm a nerd and in some parts of the game I was like "Oh come on, man up!" hahaha and the second thing I didn't like it's that the Rita way didn't go anywhere. I actually wanted to be with Kaori haha but I knew she was out of the question.

Did you notice how you interject your sentences with "haha" that doesn't add anything to the message, but boosts your confidence a bit?
That's the same thing with Kean. The reason why he throws in a random Star Wars references or how he daydreams, or how he behaves like a nerd at times is due to the fact that this is a confidence boost in a stressful situation. A defence mechanism, he switches to what's natural for him so that he's more comfortable with himself.

Mortze wrote:Thanks for your comment :)
I'm also a nerd, and Kean has many aspects of myself. But it's time people stop get offended by everything and start being proud of themselves and love who they are. He may have all the nerd cliches but he has the most beautiful human qualities. He is a far better person than many other games' characters and a far better person than many other real world persons. What's wrong if he has funny hair, some fat, glasses, bad skin, nerdy tastes? That doesn't define him as a decent or not human being.
People getting offended for everything is getting really annoying.

Thanks for that point. Very valid, very true.

JFR wrote:
Dolphin-BR wrote:... At those moments one shows what he's really made of, there is no choice, no pretending, nowhere to hide, you just show your core.

Maybe with the large experience in similar situations JFR must have seen or heard some cases when I man hid behind a woman to protect himself, and he was not a criminal using a person as a shield. I doubt it thou.

Well, I only have two comments here and then I will be done. It serves no purpose to discuss this kind of thing on a game site.

In the game, Kean did not "hide behind a woman." That is a complete misstatement of the scene. He froze. And then Rita stepped in front of him. The artwork is quite clear about that. The action then resolved very quickly so there really wouldn't have been much time to do anything else. Maggie got to her father and the crisis passed.

Seconded. I replayed that scene twice to see if I missed anything or if my impression was correct. I didn't want to post before because maybe I was still wrong about it, but it's also clear to me that Kean just froze. He just wanted to be anywhere else and was deathly afraid, but he didn't want to put anyone in any danger.
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Re: Pandora

Postby ntentacle » Thu, 17May18 11:31

First off, thanks to both of you for what you do. You make quality erotic games. That said, I like what you two do enough to be compelled to offer my honest feelings in regards to it.

I have to say that I am somewhat disappointed with the second installment of this game. I actually enjoyed the first installment of this game more than your other games because it seemed to be following a different model than the other mortze-tlaero collaboration games. By which I mean there were a number of characters between whom there was some amount of sexual tension (even if it was one-sided) or in some cases an apparent emotional connection. It was looking like there might be some limited amount of choice and plot branching in regards to with whom you develop, or attempt to develop, a relationship -- regardless of whether it might work out well in the end. Instead, I can't help but feel that with the second chapter a sharp turn was taken back towards doing the same thing you've done with all of your other collaborations, wherein you are railroaded towards the "correct" choice while other characters and potential relationships were sidelined as "buddy" routes or turned into "bad ends".

While I understand that having too much branching makes a game impossible to make (Hell, just look at Brad's Erotic Week), I believe all the following to be true:

1- Player agency is important, and if you are going to make us appear to have the option to pursue relationships with different characters, then it is important to follow through with that fully rather than with a dream sequence sex scene or a blowjob followed by "game over".
2- The "best" relationship is not necessarily the most interesting relationship. Relationships can be predicated on different things. Some are physical. Some are emotional. Some are both. Several people have said that a relationship with Rita would not have worked out. Okay -- so what? Show us that in the story, not by barricading the path that was presented to us with plot armor. In fiction flawed relationships make for interesting stories.
3- Most of your games, until the preview of Pandora, have had basically the same plot: Guy meets girl, instantly digs girl. Girl quickly starts to dig guy. Guy and girl fuck like rabbits and everyone lives happily ever after. While the writing is good, there is usually limited (if any) conflict within the story. The conflict that does exist is usually external to the main characters and their relationship, the conflict is not usually emotionally complex and does not complicate the relationship in any particularly meaningful way. There is no meat to this formula, not enough internal conflict, not enough juice, not enough nuance. I really like what you two do, but you're both way too good at what you do to keep telling essentially the same story over and over, and I fear that in at least one player's opinion that is exactly what ended up happening here despite initial promise. I get that it has been a winning formula for you two, but I would bet money that if you venture out of your formula a bit and complicate your characters and their relationships, perhaps introduce limited branching into a couple of possible story arcs, it will improve people's experience of your games.

I think that the high level of expectation that the intro to Pandora had, despite the lack of overall content, spoke directly to that fact.

Playing as a character who was his own worst enemy, and who, through player agency, might end up interacting with women with whom he might not mesh well seemed like it was going to be interesting. And juicy. I was really excited for it. Instead we got pushed back towards another duller than it had to be vanilla experience where it was decided one particular choice was the correct one and the others were wrong. Though the fucking like rabbits was as satisfying as ever.

Anyway, for what its worth, I hope you two continue to make great games. I hope that you continue this story and that subsequent chapters make good on the promise of complexity that the intro hinted at. Cheers.
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Re: Pandora

Postby teecino » Thu, 17May18 11:47

I didn't like the game mainly because i don't find teen chicks with big bushy pussies that appealing to me personally, also the setting of a boat in the middle of nowhere sounded more
suited for a thriller horror movie than for a porn game, ok, disclaimer, i may have watched too many horror movies lately :) The resemblances of some of the game models used on this game
to other previous games gives a weird experience to the player.

This is just my personal opinion and yes, i can understand why other people may have loved the game, but for me it was a disappointment. Hopefully the next game will be something more appealing
to me.
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Re: Pandora

Postby Mortze » Thu, 17May18 12:26

I think it's time that I strongly state something.
I thank all constructive criticism and your share on your personal tastes and experience playing the game.
But for the sake of truth I must inform the following:

Pandora was a story that I imagined quite some time ago, before even contacting Tlaero and starting our partnership. At that time it was to be in another format, in a comic styled pdf and not a game. Being a comic it would allow me to explore different character's perspectives, something that wasn't possible when I decided to make it a game after doing Dreaming with Elsa and discovering Tlaero's Adventure Creator.
But the plot remained as such:

- Kean and Maggie, two inexperienced fellows, get together to help each other vanquish their inexperience and bond.
- Through their experiences Maggie eventually orgasms and has a vision about the true location of the ruins.

When doing the game it was obvious that the character played should be Kean. And the plot didn't allowed more interaction with other girls, because that wasn't Kean's character and it wasn't compatible with Maggie's sex quest to have the vision. They had to do it together and couldn't do it with no one else.

After that, the plot continues now with what happens with the discovery. And It is to be played from another perspective, maybe with flashbacks, and the character for that would be Farik. Farik opens a total of different romanceable options since he is very different from Kean. He has history with Rita. And apparently Nikki and Kaori might have interest in him. Plus, Farik is one of the divers and now he must dive below to help Rita looking for and bringing artifacts to the ship for the academics (like Kaori and Roos) to study.

There's also other mysteries and things developing in the background and a third episode would have to be played by another character's perspective. My initial thought would have been Laura, the ship's doctor.

So, this isn't a game where I tought: "Hey, I'd like to make a game where you play a shy nerd that only gets together with the shy very young bushy girl and gets friendzoned by anyone else."
The game "Pandora" resulted in that because it's part of something bigger.


Knowing this I hope that you understand now the big picture and reason accordingly.
Of course, I'm not asking you to like the game or like Kean because of this information. I just want you to be full aware of my motives and why I did the game this way.
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Re: Pandora

Postby ljensul » Thu, 17May18 15:52

First of all, Great game, tx to the both of you. For me the games you make are definitely ranking in the top (nothing really comes close [img]images/icones/icon10.gif[/img]) and I have seen a lot of comments here that I think are hurting future development or the positive direction your games are going to. So I decided to mingle in the discussions here to help in anyway.

So here it goes: I believe you stated multiple times Pandora was not going to be like the other games you two made. I believe you even said it was not going to be like the elseverse games at all (could be wrong here). Correct me if I am wrong but I always thought the eslaverse games were a bit more interactive (players had choices to make with different outcomes) and Pandora (pt 1 + 2) would be a story driven game were the outcome was set at the start (with minor choices along the way) and we where just here enjoining the ride (hence the gameover screens). But somehow (maybe it was hope) people thought it would be like the elsaverse. That is not your problem nor your fault and I think you should not change a thing to Pandora (pt 1 or 2). Pandora is great in its own way because of it.

Now I do like to give my hopes for future Pandora games. Mostly because the characters in Pandora are the best I have seen so far. My personal favorite are Rita, Kaori and Nikki and seeing the next Pandora game might involve them more then others I really can not wait for it (I know it will be a long wait [img]images/icones/icon14.gif[/img]) . And seeing that game might become the masterpiece (for me personally) I do hope it follows the Elsaverse style were players can choose between routes (and I think there is room for it seeing the main character). But that is just my personal hope since it sounds so awesome for me personally [img]images/icones/icon13.gif[/img].

Its a long first post from me but I hope it helps you make future decisions.
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Re: Pandora

Postby yahoo » Thu, 17May18 16:10

I hope I'm not taken as an unnecessary advocate for Mortze here, but I have to bring up something. I don't know of any game by Tlaero (or by Mortze for that matter) that would allow you to pursue more than one romance.
There's a number of other authors if you feel that's limiting, but I wouldn't expect Tlaero to write a story involving multiple romances.

One more thing: I saw comments that some of the girls resemble other characters (from other games or such). I don't see that. There are some default models (and clothes) in DAZ3D which are WAAAAY overused by a number of artists who don't actually create anything new. I never saw that in art by Mortze (or by Phreaky).

Mortze wrote:I think it's time that I strongly state something.
I thank all constructive criticism and your share on your personal tastes and experience playing the game.
But for the sake of truth I must inform the following:

Pandora was a story that I imagined quite some time ago, before even contacting Tlaero and starting our partnership.
(...)
Knowing this I hope that you understand now the big picture and reason accordingly.
Of course, I'm not asking you to like the game or like Kean because of this information. I just want you to be full aware of my motives and why I did the game this way.

Thanks for that comment. One thing I have to thank you for are the game over screens. Seriously, it's great that they appear very early after you screw up and don't leave you backtracking through the whole game to find the place where you went wrong.
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Re: Pandora

Postby lucaskent123456 » Thu, 17May18 17:18

Mortze wrote:
lucaskent123456 wrote:I do agree in two points with the comments I've seen. I didn't like Kean very much, specially in chapter 2. I mean, he was like super duper nerdy, I think even some nerds can find that offensive. I'm a nerd and in some parts of the game I was like "Oh come on, man up!" hahaha

Thanks for your comment :)
I'm also a nerd, and Kean has many aspects of myself. But it's time people stop get offended by everything and start being proud of themselves and love who they are. He may have all the nerd cliches but he has the most beautiful human qualities. He is a far better person than many other games' characters and a far better person than many other real world persons. What's wrong if he has funny hair, some fat, glasses, bad skin, nerdy tastes? That doesn't define him as a decent or not human being.
People getting offended for everything is getting really annoying.


For the record, I never said I had problems with his looks, actually I was ok with that because my hair looks like that too hahaha I had a little problem with his attitude, but if you say part of him is based on you, it's fine by me. Sorry if I offended you in any way.

Please don't get upset Mortze, the game is awesome! You and Tlaero did an amazing job! You should be proud! :)
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Re: Pandora

Postby Mortze » Thu, 17May18 17:34

lucaskent123456 wrote:For the record, I never said I had problems with his looks, actually I was ok with that because my hair looks like that too hahaha I had a little problem with his attitude, but if you say part of him is based on you, it's fine by me. Sorry if I offended you in any way.

The whole point of my comment was that I, nor anybody, should get offended by something so small. I am not offended of course. Neither should people who are a bit like Kean.
Being offended is so mainstream now that...
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Re: Pandora

Postby xsandman78 » Thu, 17May18 17:53

yahoo wrote:
xsandman78 wrote:Personally I find the whole notion of building up a connection with Rita whilst playing as kean and then handing her over to be fucked by one of the other characters jarring.

I'd punch you if I could. "Handing her over"? Is Rita some goods to be handled and traded? Rita and Kean never had any chance as a couple. Rita isn't interested in a relationship with Kean and just sees him as sort of a little brother.



Threatening violence, really.

Not many big sister's passionately kiss little brother's unless it's in porn videos.
You are entitled to your opinion on Rita/Kean chances, personally i don't agree that there isn't as evidenced by what we do get to see in the game.
It's exactly that i don't treat her as goods but as a character the pc i played for 2 games built what felt like a real connection that i have no desire to step into a different PC's boots and be told that i can now live that dream.
Equally i assume people who felt a connection between Kean/Maggie might not necessarily be happy to be told there's more Maggie but this time you play Farik sleeping with her.

It's obviously Mortze's story and he can take it wherever he likes and my opinion is just that.
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Re: Pandora

Postby YeidenLink » Thu, 17May18 20:36

Wow Iam hooked after all your guys games.
First of all i love your characters in all of your games, there really deep and very good written.
An Motzes Art are standalone.

On Monday i played Pandora Part 2 the part 1 and finally part 2 again. [img]images/icones/icon17.gif[/img]
now is thursday and i played all of your games. There awesome!!!

About Pandora: personally i like the setting of the game and both main characters.
its really intreresting to see we both of them grow in this time in a "very charming way".
and finally a story about atlantis which is so well written. great game and thank you for the game.
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Re: Pandora

Postby triggah » Thu, 17May18 21:07

There's one really big thing that I don't like about this game, and that's while you have branched choices, you don't have any way of persuing other girls. I was much more interested in Nikki and Kaori. Other than that I enjoyed the setting and story, but I really didn't like Maggie and kept wanting to swing away from her.
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Re: Pandora

Postby Greyelf » Fri, 17May19 01:54

JFR wrote:The real world is not that simple. Nor that well scripted. Real people, with no training or experience, do not "show their core" the first time such things jump up and hit them between the eyes. That is cinema idol heroics. Rarely, they react in a "Flight 94 way" and all die in the process. More often, none of that happens.
Even experienced combat professionals have been know to freeze in an unexpected situation, even with all their training related to combat awareness and auto-response to threats. Which goes to show that an individual can react differently depending on the circumstances of each event they participate in.
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Re: Pandora

Postby Chillz » Fri, 17May19 08:16

I just want to congratulate you guys on a really great game! It really did live up to my expectations! Regarding the game...

Although I was initially disappointed that Kean couldn't have sex with anyone else(I was really looking forward to a Nikki or Laura scene), I really thought about the game from a real-life perspective and the game did seem more realistic if Kean would only be able to get Maggie(due to their sexual inexperience only made it seem compatible). The ending really kept me hooked on the Pandora storyline. I'm excited to see how Farik's jourey continues and how the Gods will play a future role in the series. I'm really looking forward to your next game, be it from Farik's POV or a new Heroine in the Elsaverse. Once again congrats and thank you guys for making such great games!
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Re: Pandora

Postby Tao Dude » Fri, 17May19 18:32

Another excellent game by Tlaero & Mortze. Tremendous artwork and the storyline was solid as ever. If I have any criticism at all, it would be the *very* minor gripe that the story is a bit linear and the correct choices are a bit more obvious than for the Elsaverse. Personally, I like the mental challenge of finding the correct path as much as the sexy rewards, if not more in some cases.

Having seen the posts on Patreon and knowing what we have to look forward to, I must emphasise that this is a *very* minor criticism. If I had not been spoiled by BEW and to a lesser extent by the Academy series on Virtual Dates and been frustrated by the unavoidable and completely understandable delays to the release of BEW Episode 7 and the wait for Academy Day 4, the relative lack of false trails and traps would not be so galling.

Perhaps the real disappointment is that i have completed the game and now have to wait to see what Farik gets up to.

Keep up the excellent work.

Best,
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Re: Pandora

Postby lucaskent123456 » Fri, 17May19 19:10

Mortze wrote:
lucaskent123456 wrote:For the record, I never said I had problems with his looks, actually I was ok with that because my hair looks like that too hahaha I had a little problem with his attitude, but if you say part of him is based on you, it's fine by me. Sorry if I offended you in any way.

The whole point of my comment was that I, nor anybody, should get offended by something so small. I am not offended of course. Neither should people who are a bit like Kean.
Being offended is so mainstream now that...


You are right, and now that you and Tlaero have explained why the game is how it is, I totally get it. I can't wait to see the next one!

Again thanks for an awesome experience and congratulations for an amazing work! :)
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