Pandora

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Re: Pandora

Postby moskys » Sat, 17May20 11:23

JFR wrote:
ltpika wrote:... the people who picked on mortze's english, history of this game would have unfolded differently had they not done that. It was perfectly easy understand as it was.

One of the idiosyncrasies we had to deal with in testing this game were some "creative" uses of English. The crew and science team of the Pandora are very international and English is not the first language for several. Even some, like Maggie, Noah and the captain, who are native speakers of English, do so with definite regional accents. Sometimes an angry Scotsman can be rather difficult to understand even though he is speaking English. Mortze wanted to preserve that international flavor in the dialog and some of the "errors" the testers (ok, mostly me) identified were actually there to highlight those differences and were left in the final product. It is very possible that some of those who complain about it are simply not realizing the intent of the author.


I'm 100% sure the intent of the autor was to make amateurish-just-for-the-laughs-and-because-I-have-too-much-spare-time translator's work almost impossible :crazy: :D

By the way, regarding this topic, I think the main difference in writing from Ch1 to Ch2 (apart from the polishing work) is that in Ch2 there are a lot of 'non-English' comments from the characters during normal chat. Way more than in Ch1. I find that minor change kinda odd. Taking Rita as case study, in Ch1 she only uses French while addressing Farik. Then in Ch2 she begins to include French words in almost every dialogue, no matter who she's talking to. I think the later is quite normal and it helps to reassert characters' different roots, but there's a little continuity issue because, as I've said, in Ch1 this happened in just a few occasions.
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Re: Pandora

Postby tlaero » Sat, 17May20 17:32

When I read some of Mortze's dialog, I did think, "Oh man, the translators are going to have a hellish time with this." I mean, what's the right thing to do when you're translating to Spanish and Laura says something in Spanish that Kean doesn't really understand? Same question for Marco when Rita says something in French. And the Scottish? Does that even work in non-English languages? It's really cool what he did with the international crew and the mixed in languages, but you folks have your work cut out for you.

Mortze posted on Pat.reon a while back that in Ch1 he was nervous to be writing in a secondary language. His English is awesome, especially when you consider that it's one of three he speaks and not even his main one, but that discomfort with the language kept him from doing the other languages by other people. In Ch2, since he had a native speaker keeping the English clean, he felt comfortable expanding the non-English speakers to his original vision.

We talked a little bit about going back and rewriting large chunks of the dialog in Ch1 to match the voice in Ch2, just like he briefly considered re-rendering all of Ch1 in iRay to match the visuals in Ch2. But, in the end, the time spent doing that is time we wouldn't have spent moving forward. The cost/benefit was off.

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Re: Pandora

Postby Crane » Sat, 17May20 18:29

Maybe trying something in dialect?

I mean for the French and the Italian. You don't have to worry about the Scottish and the Greek i suppose.
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Re: Pandora

Postby Tao Dude » Sat, 17May20 19:03

Crane wrote:Maybe trying something in dialect?

I mean for the French and the Italian. You don't have to worry about the Scottish and the Greek I suppose.


Excellent idea, Maybe Breton or Provençale for the French and Neapolitan or Sicilian for the Italian.
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Re: Pandora

Postby Marco6661 » Sat, 17May20 19:09

Funny, when you speak about the translation in other language, French in my case. [img]smile/zoumzoumzeng.gif[/img]

I take actually a great time in this job because, like I said before, it’s at the same time a challenge and a pleasure, still I like the dialogues and the story. In short, your writing, You and Mortze.

About French words with Rita, I note a (*) in the Fr part and write under the full text in the cartridge: (*)“En Français dans le texte”. Easy…

About Scottish accent, it’s not the same thing…
I haven’t found a good solution for that, I don’t know how to express this kind of elocution. So, for now, I use an Fr accent with a lot of contractions with the words. Mortze read the dialogue between Kean and the captain, give me a hand with some Scottish contractions and eaten words, and it seems to satisfy him. I hope…

No problem with Cassandra and Spanish language, I have just sometimes write Fr words with Sp accent, when she’s angry.

So, one in one, I hope to close the translation in Fr for the end of the next week (peepn165 for now). It’ll be time after to proofread (again and again) all the texts, play the game in Fr (again and again and again…) to be sure about the logic between transitions.
After all that… I’ll give the gift to Tlaero & Mortze, mission accomplie! Ouf… [img]images/icones/icon10.gif[/img]

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Re: Pandora

Postby Greebo » Sat, 17May20 20:29

Translation certainly can be a big problem I know from experience on this very site. I mean to say, I'm a native English speaker who learned to have a large vocabulary from an early age, and be pretty literate with British English via my highly literate English mother, and I also learned to be fairly capable with German and to a much lesser extent with French, but in my attempts to translate from German to English I came across a major problem almost immediately when trying to find a suitable translation of "Leibe Schnecke" into English.

I mean, what English girl would fancy being called a "love snail" or "dearest snail", let alone have their lady parts compared to a snail? Garden of delights, maybe, but all the girls I've known would have insisted that all gastropods should be left well and truly outside the garden gate!

Mind you, I guess non English speakers might have problems with the translations into their languages of examples like "crumpet", "snatch", "muff" or "beaver" even if they're not really terms of endearment in my book.
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Re: Pandora

Postby RobNorthman » Sat, 17May20 20:47

Greebo wrote:Translation certainly can be a big problem I know from experience on this very site. I mean to say, I'm a native English speaker who learned to have a large vocabulary from an early age, and be pretty literate with British English via my highly literate English mother, and I also learned to be fairly capable with German and to a much lesser extent with French, but in my attempts to translate from German to English I came across a major problem almost immediately when trying to find a suitable translation of "Leibe Schnecke" into English.

I mean, what English girl would fancy being called a "love snail" or "dearest snail", let alone have their lady parts compared to a snail? Garden of delights, maybe, but all the girls I've known would have insisted that all gastropods should be left well and truly outside the garden gate!

Mind you, I guess non English speakers might have problems with the translations into their languages of examples like "crumpet", "snatch", "muff" or "beaver" even if they're not really terms of endearment in my book.


That's why a good translator translates the spirit of the words rather than their literal meaning, almost all countries have idioms the are linguistically different, but share the same meaning. Of course the opposite is true as well. Take for example the word "fanny", in the US it's slang for ass, but in the UK it's slang for pussy (or is it the other way around, i forget). Same word, same language, different meanings. Same with the word "cunt", in the US and UK it's a nasty swear word, in Australia it's a term of endearment. The beauty is that no matter what language you speak, they never lack for synonyms for genitals. :D
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Re: Pandora

Postby Tao Dude » Sun, 17May21 00:01

RobNorthman wrote:
Greebo wrote:Translation certainly can be a big problem I know from experience on this very site. I mean to say, I'm a native English speaker who learned to have a large vocabulary from an early age, and be pretty literate with British English via my highly literate English mother, and I also learned to be fairly capable with German and to a much lesser extent with French, but in my attempts to translate from German to English I came across a major problem almost immediately when trying to find a suitable translation of "Leibe Schnecke" into English.

I mean, what English girl would fancy being called a "love snail" or "dearest snail", let alone have their lady parts compared to a snail? Garden of delights, maybe, but all the girls I've known would have insisted that all gastropods should be left well and truly outside the garden gate!

Mind you, I guess non English speakers might have problems with the translations into their languages of examples like "crumpet", "snatch", "muff" or "beaver" even if they're not really terms of endearment in my book.


That's why a good translator translates the spirit of the words rather than their literal meaning, almost all countries have idioms the are linguistically different, but share the same meaning. Of course the opposite is true as well. Take for example the word "fanny", in the US it's slang for ass, but in the UK it's slang for pussy (or is it the other way around, i forget). Same word, same language, different meanings. Same with the word "cunt", in the US and UK it's a nasty swear word, in Australia it's a term of endearment. The beauty is that no matter what language you speak, they never lack for synonyms for genitals. :D


I have always been fascinated by language, and was brought up to use [British] English properly, despite coming from a working class background. I also have a reasonable command of French and can get by in German enough to find my way about, get a bed for the night and something to eat and drink.

For many years I had a downer on American 'English', mainly becasue of its increasing cultural ascendancy, and i can appreciate why the French got upset when English superseded it as the main diplomatic language.

There is enough transatlantic difference in meaning between shared words now for American to be considered a different language. In English, only women have a fanny, the American usage translates to the British 'arse' (and the 'r' should be pronounced, not turned into a 'long a'). 'Ass' is a difficult one, because it can refer to either the butt or lady parts.

Other [British] English words and phrases to use with caution when communicating with Americans are: rubber (US=condom/prophylactic, UK=eraser, unless followed immediately by 'johnny', when it also means condom), fag (US=homosexual, UK=cigarette), faggot (US=homosexual, UK=similar to a rissole, a kind of beefburger or big meatball), knock a woman up (US=make her pregnant, UK also means this but more commonly, it just means to wake her up by knocking on her bedroom door).
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Re: Pandora

Postby Meushi » Sun, 17May21 00:24

RobNorthman wrote:Same with the word "cunt", in the US and UK it's a nasty swear word, in Australia it's a term of endearment.

That's a nasty swear word in Australia too, no one I know would say that near their mother. All depends on the context, Aussies will use all sorts of profanity in a non-aggressive fashion for emphasis or as friendly banter.
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Re: Pandora

Postby Dolphin-BR » Sun, 17May21 06:13

JFR wrote:Well, I only have two comments here and then I will be done. It serves no purpose to discuss this kind of thing on a game site.

In the game, Kean did not "hide behind a woman." That is a complete misstatement of the scene. He froze. And then Rita stepped in front of him. The artwork is quite clear about that. The action then resolved very quickly so there really wouldn't have been much time to do anything else. Maggie got to her father and the crisis passed.

Secondly, that whole nonsense about "... shows what he is made of ... ... you just show your core" is complete and utter bullshit! No doubt based on the poster's wide-ranging and extensive experience in crisis situations. :sarcastic:

The real world is not that simple. Nor that well scripted. Real people, with no training or experience, do not "show their core" the first time such things jump up and hit them between the eyes. That is cinema idol heroics. Rarely, they react in a "Flight 94 way" and all die in the process. More often, none of that happens.

Enough! Arguing about a fictional character in a porno computer game is almost a definition of futility. I'm done with that subject.


I also think there is no point in going on with this discussion, so I just want to clarify two things:
1- The sentence "... shows what he is made of ... ... you just show your core" just means we cannot control our reaction to extreme danger, we will just behave in one of those ways: Fight, freeze, run. And we don't know how anyone will react, not even ourselves.
2- In the game I played there is a line: "Move a little bit farther behind Rita." And no option to do anything different. Meaning he hid behind a woman.

Mortze wrote:...I don't know what a definition of a man is Dolphin-BR. But we, men, aren't all molded the same way. That doesn't mean we're more or less men.


Someone who has X and Y as his sex chromosomes,
feels attracted to female features like body shape, voice, and behavior,
treats women with respect and consideration,
is gentle and protective to those who are weaker like children, women, and elders,
(would never hide behind any of them for protection, much the opposite, would protect them with his own body)
doesn't need a signed paper to feel he has to do something, because his word has value,
treats with respect his subordinates and those who are weaker,
is respectful to animals,
help those in need as much as he can,
has a sense of ethics and moral values,
is able to make up his own mind about any subject regardless of other people's opinions,
stands up for what he believes.
These lines pretty much define a real man for me.
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Re: Pandora

Postby RobNorthman » Sun, 17May21 07:54

Meushi wrote:
RobNorthman wrote:Same with the word "cunt", in the US and UK it's a nasty swear word, in Australia it's a term of endearment.

That's a nasty swear word in Australia too, no one I know would say that near their mother. All depends on the context, Aussies will use all sorts of profanity in a non-aggressive fashion for emphasis or as friendly banter.

Yes you are right, that was also what I meant, sorry if I came across unclear. In the US and UK, if someone calls you a cunt it's rarely because they like you. In Australia it's still a swear word as well, but often something you'd call ya mates in friendly banter.
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Re: Pandora

Postby moskys » Sun, 17May21 11:55

Marco6661 wrote:Funny, when you speak about the translation in other language, French in my case. [img]smile/zoumzoumzeng.gif[/img]

I take actually a great time in this job because, like I said before, it’s at the same time a challenge and a pleasure, still I like the dialogues and the story. In short, your writing, You and Mortze.

About French words with Rita, I note a (*) in the Fr part and write under the full text in the cartridge: (*)“En Français dans le texte”. Easy…

About Scottish accent, it’s not the same thing…
I haven’t found a good solution for that, I don’t know how to express this kind of elocution. So, for now, I use an Fr accent with a lot of contractions with the words. Mortze read the dialogue between Kean and the captain, give me a hand with some Scottish contractions and eaten words, and it seems to satisfy him. I hope…

No problem with Cassandra and Spanish language, I have just sometimes write Fr words with Sp accent, when she’s angry.

So, one in one, I hope to close the translation in Fr for the end of the next week (peepn165 for now). It’ll be time after to proofread (again and again) all the texts, play the game in Fr (again and again and again…) to be sure about the logic between transitions.
After all that… I’ll give the gift to Tlaero & Mortze, mission accomplie! Ouf… [img]images/icones/icon10.gif[/img]

Marco.


Obviously the main problem for me is Cassandra. The way i solved that was putting his Spanish expressions in italics (by the way, I've always wondered why 'italics' is the English word for that??). Like English, Spanish is a worldwide language that has a wide range of accents and vocabulary differences, but that's not a big problem in this game - so far.

She is from Latin America, which has a wide range of accents and dialects itself, but there's only one occasion in which she says something that could be expressed in many different ways depending on people's origin. When she's about to get on her knees in front of Kean, she literally says 'Quiero chuparte la polla. Quiero que me jodas', and I don't feel that's quite correct for her. Polla is the most common word for 'cock' in Spain, but I'm not sure about Latin America, where they use other words like 'pija', 'pinga' or 'verga' - it depends on the country. And while 'joder' could be used in Latin America even more than in Spain, the word 'coger' is far more common there (thus causing lots of funny/awkward situations for Spaniards who travel to South America because in Spain 'coger' is widely used and only means 'to take', like in 'Let's take the bus', so you can imagine how latin people react when they hear us saying 'Let's fuck the bus' [img]images/icones/icon9.gif[/img] )


But then, writting Cassandra's words in italics made me think that it would be only fair to write everyone's native expressions in italics, which I did... and then I realized that italics were actually used by T&M to emphasize some expressions during conversations and descriptions, and this could cause some misunderstandings. So I decided to delete the original italics (sorry guys) and trying to rewrite those expressions in order to remark the emphasys intended. So now if there's a word in italics, it only means that it was in a non-English language in the original text.

And now, the Scottish issue. Like Marco, I've gone for lots of contractions and some mispronunciations, but it's one thing to say them loud and a very different one trying to write them. I'm not very happy with the results. I don't want to use real Spanish accents because people here are really sensitive about these language things and I don't want to raise a regional war :D I've just tried to make the Rosses sound just a bit hick, but I'm not sure I've got it right. I'm open to suggestions
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Re: Pandora

Postby Mortze » Sun, 17May21 13:04

moskys wrote:She is from Latin America, which has a wide range of accents and dialects itself, but there's only one occasion in which she says something that could be expressed in many different ways depending on people's origin. When she's about to get on her knees in front of Kean, she literally says 'Quiero chuparte la polla. Quiero que me jodas', and I don't feel that's quite correct for her. Polla is the most common word for 'cock' in Spain, but I'm not sure about Latin America, where they use other words like 'pija', 'pinga' or 'verga' - it depends on the country. And while 'joder' could be used in Latin America even more than in Spain, the word 'coger' is far more common there (thus causing lots of funny/awkward situations for Spaniards who travel to South America because in Spain 'coger' is widely used and only means 'to take', like in 'Let's take the bus', so you can imagine how latin people react when they hear us saying 'Let's fuck the bus' )

Feel free to use the Argentinian way of saying it. Unfortunately, Google Translate doesn't have an Argentinian option and I had to go with the Spanish one.

Spanish dialects are quite a sensitive matter yes. I wouldn't suggest to do the Rosses in Catalan. Is Galician an issue too? I'm not familiar with Galician friction with the rest of Spain.

As for the italics, the translators should feel free to alter the text format and the phrases. We prefer for you to keep what the character means instead of a direct translation. If you're not sure of what one particular character means with a phrase feel free to ask either Tlaero or me.
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Re: Pandora

Postby sirio » Sun, 17May21 15:24

Thank you Mortze & Tlaero for your great work in this great game. I loved the reference to Saint Seiya.

On the other hand, it's good to know that Laura, the doctor, is fan of "la Vecchia Signora". I hope she won't be too disappointed the 3rd of June...
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Re: Pandora

Postby moskys » Sun, 17May21 16:52

Mortze wrote:
Spanish dialects are quite a sensitive matter yes. I wouldn't suggest to do the Rosses in Catalan. Is Galician an issue too? I'm not familiar with Galician friction with the rest of Spain.



Problem is that it doesn't feel right to just copy an existing (and easily identifiable) Spanish accent while saying it's Scottish. I mean, I don't think it's right to make Captain Ross to talk like a Cadiz (or Vigo) native while saying he's talking with a strong Scottish accent. In that case, I 'd better change absolutely everything related to the Scottish characters and present them like Spain-born characters: el Capitán Rojo (for instance) and his kids el Noé y la Marga [img]images/icones/icon12.gif[/img] [img]images/icones/icon12.gif[/img] . And I don't want to do that. That's why I'm trying to find a new dialect
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