Dreaming with Elsa (En, Sp, Fr, It, Ge)

[Thrain]

I am really happy than Tlaero gives us a new game (out of those which use her toolkit )

First, graphics from Mortze are absolutly stunning. In my opinion, by far the best around !
I very like both Elsa and Chloe. A big thumb up for point of view you choose, Mortze, in all your picture.

Interface: As always, Tlaero's toolkit do the job, even if I prefer the way Wolfschadowe use it in Brad's Erotic Week.

Gameplay: I found this one too easy to complete. It's only my taste, but I prefer more harder game, like Christine was.

Story: I was really disapointed. That the first time with Tlaero's game !
I really dislike the way than you can both seduce Elsa being sexual or romantical. To me, that cut all personality from Elsa.
Using dream to give an alternate reality is interesting, but here, it's just a 'check' before real world.
The good part of story is the 'secret ending' where I found back the spirit of Tlaero's story I like

Whatever, I hope we will see some other games from Tlaero/Mortze.
Please, take your time, I don't care waiting one year for the next one

[tlaero]

Thrain brought up a point that I've been meaning to ask about for a while.

I'd like feedback on this. DwE wasn't the first game I did with two main routes (sexual and romantic). I actually did that in CfK as well. However, while Keisha would allow you to be one or the other, she herself didn't change significantly as a result of your behavior. The intent was to allow people to play the game the way they wanted to, and it seemed to work decently well.

In DwE I tried to go one step further and have the way the player interacted with Elsa change her as well. If you treat her more sexually she "comes out of her shell" more, etc. This makes some degree of sense, since relationships change people, but I'm not sure it actually worked well in this game. I felt that it kind of weakened who Elsa was. There are kind of two Elsas in DwE, the one on the romantic path and the one on the sexual path.

What did you folks think of this? Was it a good thing? Bad? Didn't matter?

I'm leaning toward not doing the dual paths in future games, so feedback on this would be helpful.

Thanks,
Tlaero

[Guntag]

Thrain brought up a point that I've been meaning to ask about for a while.

I'd like feedback on this. DwE wasn't the first game I did with two main routes (sexual and romantic). I actually did that in CfK as well. However, while Keisha would allow you to be one or the other, she herself didn't change significantly as a result of your behavior. The intent was to allow people to play the game the way they wanted to, and it seemed to work decently well.

In DwE I tried to go one step further and have the way the player interacted with Elsa change her as well. If you treat her more sexually she "comes out of her shell" more, etc. This makes some degree of sense, since relationships change people, but I'm not sure it actually worked well in this game. I felt that it kind of weakened who Elsa was. There are kind of two Elsas in DwE, the one on the romantic path and the one on the sexual path.

What did you folks think of this? Was it a good thing? Bad? Didn't matter?

I'm leaning toward not doing the dual paths in future games, so feedback on this would be helpful.

Thanks,
Tlaero

There are multiple ways to answer this. It depends on how you look at your game (and IF you look at it as a game).

If you create your characters and want them to have defined emotions, behaviors, like the characters of a novel or movie (where no one can interact with), then I understand you can feel like one of your "Elsas" doesn't feel right to you (the sexual one I bet !).

But if you consider your game as a whole you can have multiple "Elsas", it's just that each path are distinct, the Elsa from one path would probably not be the Elsa from the other path.

Same thing for the player, it depends on how you view the game as a whole.

Is it a bad thing or not ? I think it's not bad as long as the author is inspired and is confortable in writing different stories. I consider it like having 2 games in 1 !

Thrain and you disagree, but this is merely my opinion ! I think it would require a long psychological debate to understand why some people like it, don't mind it or don't like it. Almost as complicated as liking/don't mind/not liking cosmetic surgery ! I've done a lot of pen and paper roleplaying games, so I'm really used to have stories and characters that I can influence, as a game.

[Mortze]

I do not know if I've already answered that or not. Can't recall. But if I did I repeat it here publicly.

My perception is that Elsa does not change her personality that much or at all. Being a little (and just a little) more adventurous and frisky in bed isn't a relevant personality diversification.

Elsa's notable changes, depending on your path, are essentially on her vocabulary regarding sex and some more libertine practices (but nothing too much).
In her essence she is still the same Elsa.

My interpretation is that she simply adapts to the kind of relationship the guy she likes brings to her. A more romantic Jason makes her remain romantic and cautious, while a "sexual" Jason simply puts her more at ease to say certain words and to try certain things, but nothing she wouldn't normally be willing to do. We've discussed some oportunities for Elsa, sexually speaking, and agreed not to make her do things that would be out of her character. Not yet at least hehe

I do not think that she was weakened.
What is it to be strong? For what I stand Elsa has her morals, principles and values, humour, empathy, kindness, from the start until the end of the game. It is a girl eager to love and be loved, and in need for an intense relationship, both spiritually and physically. She is cautious about giving herself to Jason but that seems natural for Elsa's personality, that seems natural for most of the girls I know. Once she trusts him and their relationship status she gives herself entirelly to him, full of passion. I do not think any of the paths alters those facts.

I do not believe that most relationships change the way we are. Save for some cases where those changes are either very benefic or utterly warmfull, like a lost soul finding the right person or a good hearted one being corrupted by an unscrupulous one.
That doesn't seems to be the case in DEW.
But it is true that we tend to adapt ourselves to the persons we share the most with. But in a healty relationship that is both ways and it takes time. Besides, Elsa and Jason are quite similar in the core principles that define personality.

[Mortze]

I've done a lot of pen and paper roleplaying games, so I'm really used to have stories and characters that I can influence, as a game.

Special cheers to that!

[ArianeB]

The biggest problem with the two paths is that sometimes it is not always obvious, and you have to be nearly perfect to advance in hard mode.

On a few occasions, I was hitting "view source" to see which path was "black" and which "white".

I had similar complaints when I introduced the trait system on Date Ariane, which is why I went with a more balanced approach.
A balanced approach in DwE, for example, would make it bad to be too sexual or not sexual enough, but of course that would be a completely different game. Not a recommendation, just an example, DwE is fine the way it is.

Game design is always a balancing act. People hate games that are too easy or too hard.

I finished DwE in BLACK mode, haven't got very far in WHITE mode yet.

[redle]

Multiple path stories are always a bit of a mixed bag. The first thought I'll address is this one.

The intent was to allow people to play the game the way they wanted to...

This thought doesn't play out quite the way it is intended. Each player does come into a game with his own biases, preferences, desires, what have you of what he'd most enjoy. With the multi-sided scenario, the game does broaden, and thus becomes more likely to have parts that hit a player's preferences. That said, I think very few players end up playing a single path and then quit playing. Most people want to see all the content.

I have a feeling that most people end up playing their preferred path first to conclusion. Then they end up actually spending more time on their non-preferred path trying to solve it as well as searching for other miscellaneous achievements then they did on their preference. So people are actually more likely to spend less time on they parts they most like. (Not that this is uncommon. Just like the kid who stares over a pile of vegetables for 20 minutes, but wolfs down his hot dog in 10 seconds.)

The "play your way" mentality works much better when all content can still be seen regardless of play method. The zombie apocalypse is upon us. Your goal is to meet, interact, and guide strangers across the globe to safety. Do you carry a rifle and go around doing head-shots from a distance, killing by staying aloof? Do you wield a chainsaw and be as up-close and gory as possible? Do you play all sneaky-like and try to avoid all confrontation? Do you carry a white flag and try to make peace with your bipedal cousins of the brain-eating variety, befriending where possible? All the town and stranger interactions still remain mostly consistent, simply how you choose to go about getting to each one changes.

This isn't to say multiple path stories are bad. I'm just pointing out that if players actually do have a "their way", they are still forced by the game to play "not their way" quite a bit (or give up on a large portion of the content and just never see it).

Moving on....
The feel of the forked-Elsa: all stories are corrupted by their perceiver. Ask two different people to recount any event and you'll find differences (plenty of times hearing contradictions between the two in addition to each noticing different aspects). We are playing as a different character. We are seeing the story from that character's perspective. Even if the story happened the exact same way in all instances, the "story" told about it would be different each time. A womanizer is going to notice and key on different aspects of Elsa's demeanor than a shy nerd (and often times people see things that aren't even there... I've known guys that walk around and truly believe that every woman lusts after them. They constantly see signals and indications of this that don't exist.).

Not to mention, unless we're claiming there is some sort of time loop, the "events" only actually happen once. The player is choosing during play which way it actually transpired. Any way that Elsa was different in some other playthrough is a make-believe scenario that doesn't exist. (Not claiming some players wouldn't prefer consistency. Some may. From my perspective, a different playthrough is a different story altogether. It clearly isn't the same guy that's chasing after her, so why would the chasee need to remain the same? It's a different story.)

Although, as Ariane pointed out, I had no clue of the paths when I started playing. I only found out about paths when I first failed and it told me to play as all black or white, basically (and, to be honest, I do find playing as so blatantly a one-sided individual to be very unrealistic. It does make the game solvable, as I have a clear objective. But doesn't make the character feel honest at all). So then I played those ways. It was only then in the forum that I heard of the grey. In my mind the game specifically told me this wasn't an option at all.

[luke]

We've discussed some oportunities for Elsa, sexually speaking, and agreed not to make her do things that would be out of her character. Not yet at least hehe

Does your comment means that there will be a sequel ?

[Mortze]

Does your comment means that there will be a sequel ?

Can't tell sir. But always keep your options open.

[jacke]

What did you folks think of this? Was it a good thing? Bad? Didn't matter?
I'm leaning toward not doing the dual paths in future games, so feedback on this would be helpful.
quote]

I think it's depend on what kind of player you are. Some want to go throught a story and follow the flow of it and some want to have a hand on the story in order to change the course of event. In an erotic sex game it means more choose your sex scene than change the story itself. The two Elsa in DWE are not problem i think, it depends on what kind of game you want to propose (visual novel, date sim, adventure game, etc). GTC was more like a visual novel, one way to go to the final (the secret ending was for me a game over consolaton) and DWE more an adventure game because you have the choice of getting Elsa in two different manners. For the personnality change, i think it's depend on the number of character involve in the story. With multiple character (which sex interaction is possible), they may have a strict personnality, it doesen't matter because if one don't suit you ,you go to another more in your taste. But in story with one or two character i think it's important that their personnality bend to the player decision. Because if the character don't suit him, he won't continue but if he see that his choice change little by little the character's personnality , he will continue to see how far he can go.
Elsa is not weakened at all, she's just adapt in sort of that the relationship she have work, like we all do.
In conclusion, i prefer the different path because it gives you the impression that you have your own story (you choose it) and it reflect the fact that you have different side in one person.

[Thrain]

I would like to highlight my point of view.

I am not against 2 paths: I am players too, and I like to play with different points of view, to get different ending.

I am agree, Tlaero, one character should change when people around change. I think a sexual path is possible with Elsa, but result cannot be nearly the same than with romantical path.
Problem here, is sexual path was really "heavy" on first day (on my taste). The way Elsa is showing herself (running from unknow guys, hidding herself, buried in book), I just cannot believe than she start to listen Jason in sexual path.

A dual path can works on some character, but not always. I have exactly feeling you said, Tlaero: for me, it simply doesn't work in that story, with Elsa.

Mortze, I agree that Elsa is not Chloe, and stay in two path romantical. The point that fail, in my opinion, is how she can start relation with sexual jason. If jason in two path, play nealy the same at first, then push in more sexual or more remontical way, I will be agree. I mean jason should be more subtil at first (or lie or whatever) but be in state where relation can start. And after that drive Elsa in one path or one other within limit like you did with limited elsa sexual situation.

ArianeB, on DwE, I don't hit source to able to finish game in hard mode, on the 2 paths + secret path, nor need of external advice. It's a point we talk about here with Tlaero and other, several year ago, and imho Tlaero find right balance between all feedback provided by game to understand each choice (face/mood feedback, text feedback, and showing score).

To anwser to Tlaero question, you can make 2 paths games, but all characters should stay within his/her own limit (except for the 'player' character). 'Player' character change, but not other characters (other character may change a little bit but not a lot). Interaction between player and character will change, then the story change.
In DwE, secret path and romantical path are very ok, but sexual path is not. As always, is only my opinion

[capsfan333]

Tlaero, you are the master and we will enjoy whatever you send our way. That said, I thought the three different paths was great. Yes, I played the romantic one first, because that's what I am, but I enjoyed playing the sexual character too. I also loved figuring out the confused path. As long as the end results vary and the story and main character remain believable, it works for me. I love this game (and your previous ones) and probably anything you would write and with Mortze's artwork the sky's the limit. Thanks again to both of you for this game.

[tlaero]

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

Ariane, I never really looked at your code, did you do something like the following? There are a few positive variables, say "Smart, funny, and nice." The "can you go on" check combines those variables in some way (maybe sum, maybe something more complicated). So if someone wants to be "mostly funny, but a little smart" it works the same as someone who wants to be "fully funny." Maybe make it more complex where you need somewhat of a mix, etc. That would let people play more the way they like. But it would get rid of the second path. What would people think of that method?

My current design is influenced by Bioware games (ie Mass Effect, though I loved them all). In those games I always played twice and went for full Paragon once and full Renegade the second. I'm trying to figure out whether I should stick with that or change it on future games.

Thrain, Elsa wasn't hiding in the first visit to the bookstore because she was timid. She's a shopclerk. If she ran away and hid every time a customer came to the store, she'd be out of business. She was scared because she got an extremely bad vibe off of one of the two guys, and that vibe came from the terrifying dreams she'd been having for the last few weeks. When she actually thought about it, though, (when Jason came back) she realized her fear was silly. (Little did she know...)

Tlaero

[Mortze]

My current design is influenced by Bioware games (ie Mass Effect, though I loved them all).

Interesting.

[tlaero]

O. M. G. That's awesome Mortze.

Luke, I have pretty extensive plans for this universe. We'll get back to Elsa eventually, but the next game won't be about her. I'm currently torn between which of the next two games to do first. I'm thinking about taking a page out of Wolf's book, writing up a brief scene for both, posting them, and having you folks vote.

Tlaero