Feedback on these two models appreciated :) PWU Ep2

[palmer_aif]

Hey guys! So I would really appreciate your guys' input on this. These are the two current character models we're working on for Play with Us! Episode 2. Some people found the model used in the first game a little bit uncanny valley, so the goal here is to avoid that. This is for a VN with interactive elements.

[Regardie]

I liked the models from the first game. The eyes did not bother me at all.

These are both cute but to me they look a little stretched out, big hips , L O N G bodies.

[palmer_aif]

I liked the models from the first game. The eyes did not bother me at all.

These are both cute but to me they look a little stretched out, big hips , L O N G bodies.

That's easily fixed though. As long as they don't look uncanny valley im happy

[muttdoggy]

I don't really suffer from "uncanny valley". That's probably because if I could afford an android, I'd buy one in a split-second. But I did notice the majority of the complaints were about the anime-like features on the face and/or the long bodies making their meters tick. I can see you've made some changes in the facial features and the proportions so it shouldn't swing that way as much. But I can remember a post on Palmer's AIF Chronicles where you specifically stated you were taking inspiration from anime art. The way I see it is that it's your game and your vision, so you shouldn't have to accommodate to the point where you've lost your vision because that's when games die.
I think the current models are quite attractive and hopefully they still serve to show us your imagination.
P.S. - We didn't get to where we are now if we hadn't pushed and pushed the boundaries that were set by others. Food for thought.

[Stormy]

Eyes make them to have a fake look like a doll, the pink hair is also too cartoonish. you may change it to brown/black/blonde hair and keep natural looking eyes.

[KingsRaiden]

They all look anime influenced, personally I don't see that as a bad thing.

[palmer_aif]

Yeah the doll like/anime look is kind of what I'm going for. They're not supposed to look like real people. I did the same in Episode 1 but couldn't avoid uncanny valley there, so priority one is making sure they're not freaking people out

[rabbie]

I 100% preferred what you had in the first game. Hard describe it, there is just something very off about how there faces look, noses and mouth don't look right to me.

[fleet]

If it's artwork that you, as the creator, personally like, then use it. There will ALWAYS be people who don't like one particular form of art or another.
Like Rick Nelson said, "ya (you) can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself"

EDIT for LRM: Sorry about that. I should have known better.

No problem, Mr fleet. If anyone absolutely must post any shortcut this is how to do it, "ya (you)". Once per post, not once per topic.
I had to go deep into my memory but I think the way you posted is closer to the lyrics he used. LRM

[rabbie]

This is totally off topic, but Palmer... are you female? Never noticed that under your name before.

[Niauropsaka]

Did you make the eyes bigger? These eyes are the one thing I find odd.

That said, I'm a 3D artist, so I live in the Uncanny Valley. I can't speak for other people.

[palmer_aif]

Did you make the eyes bigger? These eyes are the one thing I find odd.

That said, I'm a 3D artist, so I live in the Uncanny Valley. I can't speak for other people.

They are actually A LOT smaller

[KMT]

Hi Palmer,

They are things at odd on those models. To sum it up, It seems to me that you are using two sets of proportions that are clashing.

As a matter of first impression, those characters look like they are at the age when skin get thinner or went through a strong lifting, and consequently have characteristics you would find on middle-aged/senior women.

Basically, there is a problem with the general anatomy. The proportions between the features needs more balance and that's is crucial when bringing a style like anime in 3D.
The main features of the face are extremely small/thin, the size of the eyes and the nose especially, while the jaw line is fairly heavy which make the face appear long and emaciated.

[muttdoggy]

I agree with Palmer saying that the eyes are much smaller. The proportions are more natural then you'd find in cartoon anime or manga. They are definitely less anime-influenced than before. That's a bit of a problem as the artist specifically stated that the influence is drawn from anime and that the models were going to be 3d instead of the normal cartoonish drawings. The rub is that when you have a 3d appearance, you make it seem more human and believable. Yet, at the same time you're also approaching the uncanny valley. Anime is a style of art that is governed by a set of proportions (my brother, girl friend, and daughter are all artists) and once you begin going outside the proportions to get out of the uncanny valley, it no longer falls within "anime proportions".
I applaud palmer for going for a very very well-done 3d set of anime models. The new set barely fits the proportions of being anime. And if it's tweaked even further to push it out of uncanny valley territory, it may no longer be defined as anime art. Here's ideas I have to "tone down" the "uncanny valley" appearance... try shading the models skins, do some cel shading, adding lines to the models to trick the eyes, etc.
BUT under NO circumstances should you (palmer) abandon the 3d anime you've set out to do. Once you've succeeded at using tricks to pull a 3d anime model towards the edge of the uncanny valley, you will have many artists banging on your door begging for those models. Keep up the good work on those models!!!
SPELL THEM OUT OR DON'T POST!!! LRM

[palmer_aif]

I agree with Palmer saying that the eyes are much smaller. The proportions are more natural then you'd find in cartoon anime or manga. They are definitely less anime-influenced than before. That's a bit of a problem as the artist specifically stated that the influence is drawn from anime and that the models were going to be 3d instead of the normal cartoonish drawings. The rub is that when you have a 3d appearance, you make it seem more human and believable. Yet, at the same time you're also approaching the uncanny valley. Anime is a style of art that is governed by a set of proportions (my brother, girl friend, and daughter are all artists) and once you begin going outside the proportions to get out of the uncanny valley, it no longer falls within "anime proportions".
I applaud palmer for going for a very very well-done 3d set of anime models. The new set barely fits the proportions of being anime. And if it's tweaked even further to push it out of uncanny valley territory, it may no longer be defined as anime art. Here's ideas I have to "tone down" the "uncanny valley" appearance... try shading the models skins, do some cel shading, adding lines to the models to trick the eyes, etc.
BUT under NO circumstances should you (palmer) abandon the 3d anime you've set out to do. Once you've succeeded at using tricks to pull a 3d anime model towards the edge of the uncanny valley, you will have many artists banging on your door begging for those models. Keep up the good work on those models!!!
SPELL THEM OUT OR DON'T POST!!! LRM

Thank you so much for that! It's been extremely challenging getting to this point, and basically everything you see on the models have been custom made (e.g skin, opacity maps, textures, colors, makeup, reflections, and so on). What my goal is:

1) They should look like anime characters, but rendered in 3D and iRay
2) They absolutely cannot approach uncanny valley

There are no good out-of-the-box solutions to creating anime in 3D. Yes, you can load up Keiko or Aiko, but it won't look good, especially not with iRay, which is what I want to use. Basically I have to do everything by hand. The problem with that is that you tend to go blind after a while, missing things that in hindsight might look terrible. For me, much of the stuff in Episode 1 now looks horrendous, and I can't believe I ever got to the point where I said "That's good enough" and actually put it in the game.

A lot of the things you're suggesting I have done already. Here is a picture of the texture used for the skin around the eyes of Emma (the right model):

As you can see I've had to draw very hard lines around the eyes, in order to make them "pop". Then I had to learn how to do the actual eye shadow makeup, but that's another story.

To summarize, thank you so much for your suggestions! I think the current biggest problem is: A) The characters look a bit too old, esp Emma, and B) This is caused by the jaw line (which is proving extremely hard to change. I'm confident I will get there eventually, especially with you guys' help Thanks again to all of you who have offered your input, please keep it up